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Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by onion2k on Friday July 01, 2022 @04:42AM (#31943883)
Simply moving away from Github is not enough to protect your code if you see this as a problem. Moving your code away from Github to some open alternative doesn't stop Github consuming it to use in Copilot unless you specifically forbid that in your license. If you code is freely available to use for any purpose, as many open source licenses permit, then that includes using it as training data for a for-profit product.

You need to use a license that restricts its use, and restricts the use of derivatives otherwise someone uploading a fork to Github will just put you back where you started. I think GPL3 would give you such protections, but you should check with a lawyer if this is particularly important to you.

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by chrismorgan on Friday July 01, 2022 @05:39AM (#31944225)
People keep getting this wrong. Your license is irrelevant. Copilot depends entirely on being exempt from copyright restrictions (under fair use doctrine), and you cannot restrict this with any license, because they're not using that license.

The only way you can stop them using your code so is to not share it with anyone. If they find your code (even via a leak!), they can legally use it, if their fair use claim is correct.

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by formerly_proven on Friday July 01, 2022 @05:55AM (#31944323)
Copilot being fair use is what Microsoft claims (obviously), not an established fact. There is no precedent for this claim.

(Nitpick: Fair use isn't an exemption from copyright, it's a defense for violating copyright)

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by dragonwriter on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:50AM (#31944640)
> Nitpick: Fair use isn't an exemption from copyright, it's a defense for violating copyright)

Nitpick: Fair use is both a Constitutional and statutory (the latter codifying the former) limitation on the exclusive rights granted as part of copyright, so it's definitely an exception.

Procedurally, it operates as a defense, but that's not inconsistent with it being an exception.

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by formerly_proven on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:30AM (#31944910)
True, the contrast here would be e.g. copyright law as usually found in EU states, where the are actual, enumerated lists of exceptions to copyright. Fair dealing as used by some former UK colonies seems more similar to the EU approach than US fair use doctrine.

"Training of ML models with data not licensed to you and then selling the output of the model" isn't on those lists, and consequently is a flagrant copyright violation in - broadly - the entire EU.

If you are a developer in the EU using Copilot, it is really pretty obvious that using Copilot is a commercialized copyright violation, which is e.g. in Germany (but I'm guessing many other states) a criminal offense, not a civil offense. Now, people might say, they're paying Microsoft for this service, and that's not in the EU, so something something can't prosecute. Of course, that doesn't actually work in the real world, and this corner of prosecuting copyright violations has been extremely well explored during the many, many trials of people committing IP violations of music and films over the past few decades.

In addition to that, I'm pretty sure routine copyright violations by an employed developer would be one of the more clear-cut reasons for a termination without notice and compensation for having to replace the affected code.

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by dragonwriter on Friday July 01, 2022 @08:00AM (#31945194)
> True, the contrast here would be e.g. copyright law as usually found in EU states, where the are actual, enumerated lists of exceptions to copyright.

How is that a contrast? The US has an actual, enumerated list of exceptions (the US term is “limitations on exclusive rights”, of which fair use is, in the US Code order, the first.)

See the section headings in Title 17, Chapter 1: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/chapter-1

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by formerly_proven on Friday July 01, 2022 @08:07AM (#31945271)
Fair use itself is open-ended, and not enumerated. US law has fair use and other limitations. In contrast, EU law does not have open-ended limitations, but only the fixed, enumerated limitations. So I don't get your point here - US law leaves significant room for interpreting limitations on copyright via fair use. EU law doesn't.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by egeozcan on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:48AM (#31944633)
> Fair use isn't an exemption from copyright, it's a defense for violating copyright

My uneducated brain cannot tell the practical difference between them, can you or anyone knowledgeable please explain like I'm 5?

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by hnlmorg on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:08AM (#31944761)
They're not accurate. Or at least not accurate to most jurisdictions that've I've read up on (some countries might be set up that way but I wouldn't know which).

Take UK law, "fair dealing" (I believe it's written as) is specifically stated as "not infringing copyright". Which means it's an allowance or exception, depending on how you want to phrase it. It's not something that is technically in breach and then used as a defence in (for example) court. In fact I don't even know how that kind of law would work in practice.

However since fair use can be a little subjective at times that does mean people are often forced to defend their position that their usage of the source material fell under "fair dealing".

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by ljlolel on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:17AM (#31944463)
You shouldn’t be downvoted
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by torginus on Friday July 01, 2022 @05:43PM (#31953398)
Generally speaking, this sounds incredibly dangerous to me - if the courts retroactively decide it isn't fair use - companies who have used Copilot generated code in their closed source offerings could find themselves in hot water.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by thruuavay on Friday July 01, 2022 @05:54AM (#31944313)
If so, then the other edge of the sword may be sharp enough. Collect all bigco source code leaks and create a fancy Schmopilot model out of it. Publish said model on GitHub.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by ShamelessC on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:14AM (#31944442)
I suspect any such model will have weird biases that don't match public usage. Monolith code can be impressive, but it probably only happens outside the context window of Copilot.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by alpaca128 on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:02AM (#31944709)
The functionality doesn't matter. Such a project would exist to show Microsoft what it's like to be on the other end of their shady practices.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by ShamelessC on Saturday July 02, 2022 @07:32AM (#31958155)
I seriously doubt they would care.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by jillesvangurp on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:20AM (#31944478)
Correct. Co-pilot is simply operating under the current interpretation of copyright law, which has provisions for fair use which is actually very important for how software development works. Fair use is crucial. Without that we can't implement proprietary APIs or allow ourselves to be inspired by other people's work. The samples of code you get from co-pilot aren't any different from those you find in a book (copyrighted and typically not OSS), on stackoverflow, or code you have seen somewhere else (for example on Github). And programmers use all of the above. If you don't like that, keep your code proprietary and refrain from publishing it.

In the same way, Google is making use of fair use by providing website titles, summaries, book samples, etc. There has been some controversy with news about them taking that too far. But by and large, they are still legal. And people of course have tried to challenge that in courts. It's just small samples being distributed, not a complete work. There are lots of examples of companies depending on fair use for all sorts of things. E.g. quoting an author or paraphrasing their work is fine. You don't need their permission for that.

Also another point here is that it isn't necessarily just MS that would be violating copyright (if the above somehow wasn't the case) but the receiver of the auto-completed code that ends up distributing that code. Because it is that code that ends up being distributed. All MS does is show you some code sample, it's the programmer that decides what to do with it. Whether you receive your sample from Stackoverflow, co-pilot, or a book is not relevant: you are responsible for the code you distribute.

Finally, the Github terms of use give Github some rights to doing things to your code if you choose to put it on Github. That probably also covers what they are doing with Github Co-pilot. That's a valid reason for removing your code from Github if you don't agree with that but of course no guarantee that Github Co-pilot would not crawl external public git repositories or that whomever you pick as an alternative wouldn't have some similar legalese in their terms of use. If these things matter to you, review it. Just because Gitlab hasn't launched a co-pilot competitor doesn't mean they couldn't.

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by wiz21c on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:50AM (#31945090)
As a GPL code auhtor, I gave anybody the right to use my code as a complete program or to build derivative programs that have a strong tie with my original code (derivative work).

I didn't envision that my code would be split into tons of little code snippets and then sold around. Doing so, the spirit of the GPL-isation of my software has been betrayed.

There's also a free flow of information argument. Citing pieces of my code is good for that flow. But MSFT doesn't seek free flow here, it seeks a money-making flow. So I disagree.

I understand your explanation and somehow, it sounds right on the pragmatic level. But on the idealistic level, it sounds wrong :-/

Dunno...

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by jillesvangurp on Friday July 01, 2022 @09:47AM (#31946308)
It's right in the legal sense. Until someone with a smart lawyer proves it wrong in a court and gets the judge to agree. Ideology does not factor into the interpretation of the law by judges in court cases. Only in the making of the law (by politicians).

On balance, you are distributing software that is copyrighted (nothing you can do about that). The GPL gives users some limited permissions that undo some of the restrictions that come with copyright. Fair use applies to copyrighted material regardless of the license and is not something you can actually restrict with a license. That kind of is the whole point of fair use. So, the GPL, it's (supposed) intentions, and idealism don't factor into the equation here. That's just not how it works.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by leereeves on Friday July 01, 2022 @11:35AM (#31947902)
> Ideology does not factor into the interpretation of the law by judges in court cases

It certainly does. That's one big reason why judges often disagree and judges' rulings can often be predicted by which party appointed them.

But the copyleft ideology in particular rarely factors into court cases, because few judges care about it.

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by chiefalchemist on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:08AM (#31944764)
Yes. But I'm under the impression the core issue is GH charging $10 p/m for CoP, not CoP itself. That is, taking what should be free and adding a price tag.

Or maybe I've misread the article?

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by nine_k on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:40AM (#31945002)
Charging money for GPL'd software is explicitly allowed [1].

I suppose this is how e.g. Red Hat operates.

[1]: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by chiefalchemist on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:45AM (#31945040)
So then what exactly is the article objecting to? Sorry, I musta missed something.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by nine_k on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:53AM (#31945131)
The article does not; the comment I answered to, yes.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by Hamuko on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:40AM (#31944606)
>Copilot depends entirely on being exempt from copyright restrictions (under fair use doctrine), and you cannot restrict this with any license, because they're not using that license.

I feel like this has not really been tested, especially in a court that resides outside the United States. Microsoft, as far as I know, probably has legal entities in other countries as well. A German developer residing in Germany could take Microsoft Deutschland GmbH to court in Germany.

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by notacoward on Friday July 01, 2022 @10:13AM (#31946675)
"if their fair use claim is correct"

That clause is doing a lot of work here. You seem to be starting with an assumption that their claim is correct, but it's kind of a ridiculous assumption. Here are the usual categories of fair use, according to the US copyright office.

"criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research"

Which of these do you think describes Copilot? I say none. I also suspect that most people and most courts would say none. I don't think "arbitrary incorporation into other works without attribution" fits even a generous definition of fair use. Some might even recognize it as a definition of plagiarism. Can you make your case instead of assuming it?

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by chrismorgan on Saturday July 02, 2022 @03:09AM (#31956904)
I am reporting facts, not making any judgement on the legitimacy of their claim.

As far as practical consequences are concerned: if their fair use claim is struck down, Copilot is dead, unequivocally, because the only kind of license they can satisfy is a public-domain-equivalent one, and there’s not all that much such code. This is why I said “depends entirely on”.

See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31849107 where I said much the same thing, and pointed out that any mentions of the GPL specifically are a red herring.

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by dragonwriter on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:44AM (#31944620)
> Simply moving away from Github is not enough to protect your code if you see this as a problem. Moving your code away from Github to some open alternative doesn't stop Github consuming it to use in Copilot unless you specifically forbid that in your license.

I mean it does in the short term, because Microsoft trains it on public GitHub code.

Beyond that, as long as Microsoft is operating under their “fair use” theory, licensing is irrelevant: if they decide to expand their funnel to public code from outside of GitHub, yours will get sucked in if it is public, regardless of license, since their entire theory is they don't need a license.

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by tyingq on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:24AM (#31944868)
>Microsoft trains it on public GitHub code

They seem to say that's not the only source.

"What data has GitHub Copilot been trained on?

GitHub Copilot is powered by Codex, a generative pretrained AI model created by OpenAI. It has been trained on natural language text and source code from publicly available sources, including code in public repositories on GitHub"

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by alpaca128 on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:05AM (#31944736)
Would this still apply if the license explicitly forbids use for AI training?
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by dragonwriter on Friday July 01, 2022 @08:03AM (#31945222)
Yes, if it is a use that doesn't require permission from the copyright owner, the license is irrelevant (unless you can demonstrate that the person doing the license-prohibited use agreed to the license anyway, in some context that makes it legally binding such as a contract.)
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by blueflow on Friday July 01, 2022 @04:47AM (#31943906)
Or don't license your code at all. Gives you great power with selective enforcement of IP rights.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by kelnos on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:07AM (#31944407)
In most jurisdictions, copyright is automatic. If you put no license on the code, the default is "all rights reserved"; that is, no one can do anything with it.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by blueflow on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:21AM (#31944481)
Yes, that's my intention, almost: no one can legally do anything with it. Private persons usually ignore these laws generally and get away with it.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by Kye on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:02AM (#31944712)
The fair use Microsoft thinks it has would still apply. Good luck going up against the lawyers who signed off on this.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by amelius on Friday July 01, 2022 @05:44AM (#31944259)
Huh? What if someone else claims they wrote your code and slaps a license on it?
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by blueflow on Friday July 01, 2022 @05:51AM (#31944289)
When its my IP i can enforce it, send them a DMCA or sue them for damages. They used my stuff without having a license to do so. If they slapped an own license on it, granting others permission to it, that would increase the damages.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by amelius on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:41AM (#31945006)
Ok, but you'd have to prove it.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by blueflow on Friday July 01, 2022 @08:04AM (#31945240)
For git repos, include the current revision of your master branch as metadata to an SEPA transaction. This is a legal solid proof that you had code at time X.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by amelius on Friday July 01, 2022 @10:57AM (#31947254)
Interesting. Has anyone automated this?

It reminds me of:

https://notary.bitcoin.com/

However, it does not prove that your version of the repository was the first and original one.

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by blueflow on Friday July 01, 2022 @11:21AM (#31947642)
I consider the SEPA tagging a secondary method. If someone was to contest the authorship of my code, i'd challenge them to explain why certain passages were written in that way. Or how specific magic numbers were picked. Linus for example used the birth date of his daughters as magic numbers for the reboot() syscall.

Generally i do recommend to avoid cryptocurrencies for anything serious. Its public image is beyond repair.

Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by CogitoCogito on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:00AM (#31944358)
They could do that if you licensed it too. It would be illegal just the same.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by yakak on Friday July 01, 2022 @05:48AM (#31944272)
Copyright is independent of license.
Re:Open source body quits GitHub, urges you to do the same by 2Gkashmiri on Friday July 01, 2022 @05:20AM (#31944100)
AGPL sure but i would say SSPL is better in the sense that they would have to give out source code of copilot and everything in and around it. i would love if github does that once