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Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by tiffanyh on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @07:44AM (#31918819)
Unpopular view here ... if it took 19 engineers to rebuild your software - that seems like a failure on your part (not theirs).
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by izzydata on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @07:49AM (#31918852)
I don't think there is enough context to determine that. It seems plausible that it could maybe be a mix of being highly productive due to the lack of overhead of working with many other people and some obfuscation through complexity probably for the same reason that he wasn't working with other people and could optimize for only his own legibility.
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by kayodelycaon on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @09:04AM (#31919554)
There are a lot of explanations possible.

I’ve deal with with the aftermath of with “80% developers” my entire career. In two weeks, they’d write a good enough program with no handling of edge cases or errors.

Replacing one of these with a proper application can take a year.

I’ve also dealt with a team of programmers who couldn’t come close to my productivity solo. It was due to constraints and communication overhead, not incompetence.

When you go from a solo dev to a team of 19, that sounds more like a change in strategy by management than anything else.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by bmitc on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @11:29AM (#31921556)
I’m not sure what you mean by 80% developers, but I am generally cautious on developers who are seen as uber productive. I worked with one in the past, and they would blow through so much code. It amazed everyone else, but they left a literal wake in the code. It was just a gigantic mess when you dove into it that wasted so much time down the road in onboarding others, refactoring it, maintaining it, etc.
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by kayodelycaon on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @12:14PM (#31922196)
Sorry, I should have clarified, they are developers that quickly do 80% of the work and move to the next thing.

They are often quite intelligent and very productive, but aren't inclined to think a problem through to completion.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by bmitc on Thursday June 30, 2022 @10:27AM (#31932742)
Gotcha, and no worries! That makes perfect sense. I was just calling it out that I wasn't for sure to ward off inadvertently supporting or commenting on something I wasn't sure about.
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by lamontcg on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @02:44PM (#31924140)
Yeah, I've inherited a mess of software written by one of those before.

I used to have some imposter syndrome because I wasn't that hyper productive, but not after having to clean that code up.

For example, I found a supposedly queue-less parallel map / threadpool with 2 or 3 queues inside of it, which had weird deadlock bugs that would result in strange occasional timeouts. I replaced it with a parallel map with no queues built on top of a thin and standardized threading library. The deadlocks went away. The resulting code was pretty boring in readable. I never bothered to dig into why the old code deadlocked, but throwing it all away fixed all the problems.

It is a lot easier to greenfield where you can put off the edge conditions till later and focus entirely on the first 80%, it is also really easy to greenfield when you focus on just typing as fast as you can and spray sloppy code everywhere (actually sloppy code like that crazy parallel map implementation I threw away). I suspect the latter is what a lot of "10x developers" actually are.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by gsibble on Monday July 04, 2022 @11:14AM (#31977915)
It was a combination of being the sole decision maker, architect, product manager, etc. without having to coordinate with a team, being very senior (25+ years), being a very fast coder (I produced 4x the lines of code of anyone else at the company during my year there), and the fact they only hired jrs other than me straight out of coding camps. They expected code monkeys to write Shakespeare. This was a bank with extreme security requirements that I build in a high sophisticated microservice architecture. My code was easy to read, but the systems were certainly not easy to understand, especially to jrs with zero experience in microservices, Kubernetes, devops at all, etc..
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by jraph on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @07:48AM (#31918849)
Can you develop?

It seems to me the need to rewrite the project at all, depending on the reasons, could be the failure, not that it took one year and 19 engineers to do it.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by fendy3002 on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @07:57AM (#31918932)
Yes, we're lacking context here. Most of the time developers will want to build things from scratch given the opportunity. It's simply easier (from one's opinion) and the time gap may provide with better tooling and frameworks. That applies whether the new lead developer is good or bad.

And longer time is not a good indicator too, since previously op may cutting corners to make development faster.

However 19 engineers handling one project that can be handled by one person previously is imo, a sign of not optimized work. That is, granted if the scope of work is the same for both.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by heretogetout on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @03:16PM (#31924512)
IME it's a sign of one developer doing their best to get a system up and running well enough for business to get by (basically a MVP) and business not providing the staff necessary to improve upon it until it is too late. Maybe it needed 19 engineers all along. At least, that has been my experience in the past.
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by wgj on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @08:43AM (#31919356)
Junior/mid devs will rewrite something they don't understand, rather than analyze and understand it. Everyone wants a green field project.
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by fartsucker69 on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @08:24AM (#31919169)
can you explain?

there's no logical link here for me at all. if OP was never born and they had to build that app from scratch, and it took them 1 year and 19 engineers to do it, you wouldn't be posting the same thing.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by headsoup on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @08:32AM (#31919251)
To me there is no logical reason for needing 19 engineers other than poor documentation, written in a niche language (or non-standard for the org) or they use a consulting firm that of course said it will take 19 engineers and needs rebuilding.

Why, in any scenario, would something well coded and documented need that amount of rework otherwise? Aside political, ego reasons that is...

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by randomdata on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @09:34AM (#31919882)
I watched something similar play out once upon a time, albeit not quite to the scale of 19 developers, but rather six developers. I expect a team of 19 would have found a similar fate.

The rework was driven by a desire to move an existing web application to mobile. That was fair enough, I suppose. Given the market they were trying to go after I think that was a reasonable choice. But alongside that it was decided by the powers that be that the entire backend, which was already well abstracted from the frontend and would have transitioned to mobile quite nicely, would be replaced by Firebase to speed up development for the team of junior frontend-focused developers it hired to build the project. That choice was far more dubious, but the leaders were convinced it would speed up development and allow them to hire cheaper workers.

The initial prototype of the rewrite was stood up impressively quickly. However, the weight of the technical debt accumulated during that time saw further development start to crawl to a snail's pace. For example, every little new data access pattern that came up revealed that the database (Firestore) wasn't structured effectively for the use case requiring a lot of work in constantly massaging the data. The automated test suite found in the original was also foregone in the rewrite, which multiplied the manual effort required to verify every change. And there was, simply, a much higher defect rate. Months upon months were spent just fixing bugs.

Long story short, new leadership wanted to focus on mobile and thought they could do it faster and cheaper switching to tech that low-cost developers would be capable of using. One reasonable, in my opinion, choice followed by a whole lot of bad choices. Perhaps that falls under political/ego reasons, but I'm not so sure. The intent was sound, but the execution fell flat.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by ratww on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @01:24PM (#31923138)
> To me there is no logical reason for needing 19 engineers other than poor documentation

They're rebuilding it from scratch. The documentation needed to build a system from scratch should be provided entirely by management, product managers and product owners.

Should developers write some documentation? Sure. But "how to rewrite this shit from scratch" is not the kind of documentation developers should be writing.

Talented people do exist. And untalented developers are more common than talented ones. There's no reason to doubt OP or to call him a shitty documentation writer just so it matches your world view.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by gsibble on Monday July 04, 2022 @11:19AM (#31977974)
Thank you. The biggest issues were:

- I was not ever told to write documentation, never given time to do it, and was working around 100 hour weeks, almost all spent coding, under tight deadlines.

- I'm a senior developer / Architect with 25+ years experience and a degree in Computer Engineering from a top school

- The 19 people who replaced me were almost all right out of coding camps with 1-3 years experience

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by headsoup on Thursday June 30, 2022 @07:46AM (#31931198)
I'm not saying the developer is crap, I'm saying it didn't take 19 developers to do what he/she did.

Each of those 19 developers could have been just as good, but the problem/requirement was likely very different for them.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by gsibble on Monday July 04, 2022 @11:20AM (#31977986)
I have 25+ years experience and a computer engineering degree from a top university.

The 19 people were all right out of coding camps and each had 1-3 years experience.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by ratww on Thursday June 30, 2022 @10:44AM (#31932977)
Are the requirements really 19 times harder though? Or at least N times larger, so that it requires 19 times more people? I most sincerely doubt it.

The reason there was 19 developers is probably because someone pulled the number 19 out of their ass.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by PeterisP on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @09:18AM (#31919681)
If they simply pretended it does not exist, they should be able to rewrite it with 1 developer in less than a year. If they can't and need an order of magnitude more resources, that's a sign of incompetence on the new team.
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by gsibble on Monday July 04, 2022 @11:17AM (#31977946)
They were all code monkeys right out of coding camps.
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by sanitycheck on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @08:58AM (#31919496)
I've been there, a client-side app I built in 6 months got a rewrite which took 5 people 2 years and ended up with about half the original functionality.

The rewrite was warranted because so much stuff (API, UI) was changing entirely due to external forces. What it actually did (from the user's perspective) was pretty similar, how it did everything needed to be different. I didn't write it myself again because I was busy with other stuff.

There were numerous reasons it failed (we can say failed because the customer ended up going elsewhere). Devs were inexperienced, overconfident, chose inappropriate technology for the problem and wouldn't listen to advice. There was nobody in a tech lead position on the project (CTO at the time constantly spouted nonsense about "self organising teams") so everybody spent their time shaving their pet yaks and hoping other people would handle the difficult/boring bits. Deadlines were repeatedly issued but had no bearing on reality so everyone knew they'd be missed - thus they were meaningless.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by zo1 on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @03:16PM (#31924509)
Witnessed a bit of the inverse or similar, dunno. Something written over many years and working very well, was to be "rewritten" as a web site/app/mobile thing. And a "single" (wunder) dev pulled a miracle with a great POC demo where seemingly all needed functionality was almost there and working, all in a week which included many late nights according to them. This person had used the magical power of "angular" and all these "fancy" new things that wow-ed the leadership, that was so used to that "slow thick client" with it's outdated "C# compiled code".

Then after this transpired, it was up to the team to make all the APIs available to this new pretty-much-finished app and for it to be wired and polished into a "production ready" app. This process, along with all the unfinished, badly written, tech-debt ridden crap, took a year. Barely months in, simple features by this wunder-dev took weeks, incessant complaints about tech-debt by said dev, endless meetings and hand-wavy excuses about how "no we can't do it that way, it's not the angular way, and you don't know JS so shush!".

Countless angular upgrades and package updates with breaking changes, renderer this, web-component that, cordova that, do we support react, oh we didn't make it mobile friendly cause we can use native component libraries, oh crap we have multiple repos zomg now we need Lerna to compile our app, what about events let's use an event bus on the FE, and on and on, with no end in sight. It's years later and it's still being supported as if it's the holy grail, all while it continues dragging down actual feature dev. All this for a couple-dozen screens.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by tartoran on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @08:56AM (#31919484)
Op was not saying it was good and documented code so a lot of context is missing here but even if it was a POC that needed a more generic/maintainable code rewrite, it would still justify keeping the original developer who wrote the code and giving them a market value compensation. Now again, we’re missing context here and it is not impossible that the code was a complicated mess that the original dev cobbled together culminating in a hot fire and they were too arrogant to be kept around. I’ve seen variations of that scenario. However, incompetency of the management is more likely to be the cause. Let’s keep in mind that in a lot of companies they management want to make sure all devs are replaceable so they don’t obtain too much leverage.
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by headsoup on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @11:31AM (#31921586)
Exactly, that was my point. It's not that the engineer simply coded better than 19 other people together could, it's that other factors came into play. If the intent was to portray they are just a 19x developer... I know I'd have some questions...
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by bluesnowmonkey on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @06:08PM (#31926288)
To me it rings true. 1x is how much the company could get away with paying, so they did, because companies are reluctant to part with money. 19x is closer to how much value the system was providing, and thus how much resources were allocated to replacing it when that suddenly seemed necessary.

If the company had a more long term mindset, they would have been allocating something like 3x devs continuously the whole time, so that when the original dev quit, there was no crisis.

But… they didn’t. I’ve seen this kind of short term thinking up close plenty of times. Nothing to do with documentation quality.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by gsibble on Monday July 04, 2022 @11:15AM (#31977924)
They never gave me time to write documentation. I was working 100 hour weeks, almost all coding, under tight deadlines.

You can see why I wanted a raise.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by notahacker on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @08:52AM (#31919453)
Logically if the OP was never born, his software wouldn't exist, and a company wouldn't have made the judgement that replacing his software asap would be a good use of up to 19 man years of budget

(Of course it's also unknown whether that decision was a sensible one, whether it was forced by external pressure like API changes despite the stability and maintainability of the original system and whether the OP's software possessed equivalent functionality to its expensive replacement. All we know is the choice to create the software again from scratch was, to some extent, influenced by what had already been created)