A straw purchase is when a gun is bought for someone who is not allowed to own one (a "prohibited person"). Commonly, one person supplies the money for the gun, while the person with a clean criminal history is the one who fills out the background-check form.

Straw purchases can happen if you are selling privately too. You should take a few steps to make sure the buyer is legit. Ask to see a concealed carry permit or FOID card. Or ask for a driver's license, and put the info down on a bill of sale that you then both sign. Keep the bill of sale forever, in case the gun should ever be stolen or used in a crime - it can help get the gun back to the new owner if the ATF does a trace.

> A straw purchase is when a gun is bought for someone who is not allowed to own one

Nope - it doesn't matter whether or not the actual buyer can legally purchase or possess it. A straw purchase is a crime regardless.

> You should take a few steps to make sure the buyer is legit.

Morally, yes. Practically, no.

You're only committing a crime if you know or should reasonably know the person you're selling to is prohibited. You have no legal duty to ask, and asking only proves that you considered the possibility, and could be construed as evidence that you were suspicious.

Yes, this comes down to very specific state rules.

In college I would find deals on guns on Backpage, buy them cheap, and then resell them at a much higher listed price.

No background checks were required for private sales, so all I had to check was that the person had a driver's license for the correct state when I sold it, and even then no bill of sale or info was required.

Make your selling process known, and you'll get some very sketchy buyers that are willing to pay high prices, and it's all technically legal as the seller as you don't even need to ask if the buyer is legally able to purchase a firearm, and it helps fund college tuition.

That, however, is acting as an unlicensed dealer and is federally illegal. The exception would be if you legitimately wanted to own them and happened to want to sell them later. The profit being a happy accident in that case.

Right. And clearly that was my motive. Always happy to find a buyer later to help pay for the rounds I put through that weapon at the range.

FYI, depending on when that happened, that was almost certainly federally illegal. Felony federally illegally.

1) acting as a dealer (buying with intent to resell - aka 'dealing in firearms' [https://fflconsultinggroup.com/federal-firearms-license-what...])

2) likely selling to those who were not residents in the same state (you mention drivers licenses 'for the correct state', which implies not all the same state) [https://thefirearmfirm.com/gifting-or-selling-a-firearm-acro...]

3) selling to those you reasonably suspect may not be eligible to own. [https://www.nrablog.com/articles/2016/4/buying-and-selling-a...]

This is not a gotcha question, and I'm asking because my answer would be no and I'm curious what you have to add to my thoughts.

Do you ever feel bad about selling guns to people who have been convicted of a severe enough crime to not be able to buy one directly?

I’m not the GP, but I’ve sold a few face-to-face.

I find that intuition is far more reliable than documentation anyhow. I’ve turned down several sales because the buyer struck me as irresponsible.

Lots of people will only private sale to someone with a concealed permit as it acts as a form of 'good guy' card.

I never had any evidence of the buyers not being legally able to own them. I simply checked to make sure they were a resident of the state via their driver's license.

Having a higher willingness to pay could be a whole bunch of things; I just found there was a curious number of buyers that would pay over the going rate, which in a free market may have meant there was a reason for it.

I also take ideological issue with the felons cannot own firearms rules. Imo, if you've served your time, your debt to society was served, and your rights should be restored.

I was never under the impression that these weapons would be used for violent crime.

> for someone who is not allowed to own one (a "prohibited person").

The way it works with firearms, purchasing a gun on behalf of somebody else (not as a gift) is illegal regardless of that other person's legal status as a gun owner. If you and I are both allowed to buy and own guns but for whatever reason agree that you will give me money and I'll buy a gun for you, that's illegal.

From what I understand, it's only if you are filling out the form (background check) for someone else. It's all about the form, not the money.

> You should take a few steps to make sure the buyer is legit. Ask to see a concealed carry permit or FOID card.

I've known people who buy and sell quite a few guns, and even though there was no legal requirement for them to do so, this was their policy. Show them a matching permit to acquire or carry permit and driver's license, or they wouldn't sell a gun. Nothing was written down, but if you weren't willing to show matching paperwork and an ID, they wouldn't sell it to you. And I think in a few cases, if the buyer was being unusually squirrely and evasive, they didn't even get that far.

Very, very few gun owners have any desire to sell guns to prohibited persons.

It's a bad idea to check ID. If you check and get it wrong it may conceivably be used against you. The law does not require you to check and you should never check. Simply refuse to sell if they plainly state they are a felon or not a state resident and sell with no questions in every other case.

I find it hard to believe that one would be in more legal hot water for having checked as a matter of policy and having missed a high quality fake ID or something, than for not having checked at all.

I know an awful lot of gun owners, and I can't think of one who would sell a gun to someone they suspected wasn't permitted to own one.

The law doesn't say you have to check so you don't. They'd basically have to tell you they're a prohibited person for a DA to have an airtight case.

I bring this up because people like yourself slowly erode rights by doing "the right thing" when that thing is giving up something you will never get back.

To clarify why I think you might be punished if you check and mess up: that's kinda how it works for rendering aid in a crisis. People have refused to render aid because they feared they would be sued. Even if you expect an airtight acquittal, it costs money, and you may not actually have enough money to prove your innocence if the other person has more.

Buying with the intent of selling to somebody else is extremely illegal and taken very seriously. Go to your LGS you will almost certainly see a sign or notice warning it.

No, it's not:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2022/4/15/23025545/atf-gun-deal...

It is, lying on a federal form, its this question on the 4473:

21.a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) (ATF Form 5300.9A)? Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you.

If you answer No to this question, the transfer cannot continue.

Cite: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-trans...

There is an actual difference and legal difference between "Buying on behalf of someone else" and "Buying for the intent of resale". The latter may not (or may!) know the identity of the eventual owner in advance. Buying guns as a speculative investment is worthwhile. It is totally legal to know that "This collector/prop house is looking for $RAREGUN and will pay me $12k for it", find it and buy it for $10k, and purchase it. You know your buyer, you may even have gotten an explicit solicitation for the item in question, but the unsurety of when the second sale will be made (even if you're very confident of it) makes it not a straw purchase.

If you’re buying guns for resale, you may need an FFL. In the example you provided of buying a 10k rifle because you know some collector will pay 12k for it, I would think an FFL 01 is appropriate.

It may not be a straw purchase, but it’s also not primarily for your collection. The threshold of “business” or “dealing” seem intentionally vague by the ATF, but what you described can be interpreted as illegal without an FFL. My two cents anyway.

Absolutely; there's a serious gray area that's fairly easily resolved by paying a FFL licensed dealer to facilitate both transfers. But it's absolutely not the case that a private citizen can't buy with the intent to resell. It is absolutely illegal to use someone else's money to buy a gun and immediately give it to them. Between that, there's a nice wide gradient.

If u have a FFL it's not a "loophole" bc then the 4473 is still mandatory.

It’s illegal (federal) to fill out the purchase form and run a background check on your name if you are buying it for someone else.

True, but the ability to privately sell firearms creates plausible deniability for a lot of straw purchases. A seller could have claimed to lawfully sold it to some other resident in a state with no background checks. If the gun ended up in a criminal's hands it must have been that person who sold it, or maybe a whole bunch of intermediate buyers.

The jury isn't just there to protect you. It's also there to send you away when you are obviously trying to hack the system.

"Oh, gee, I just bought the gun on Tuesday and sold it on Thursday for no particular reason. It just happens that the gun appreciated by 20% during that time and my friend really didn't want to spend so much gas getting all the way to the gun store anyway. Who would have guessed such a fine person would be a felon? Same for the other 14 counts."

The average time between when a gun is bought from an FFL and subsequently used in crime is something like 20 years IIRC. The person who bought it new could more often than not easily claim to have sold it years ago, and passed through countless intermediate owners.

All transfer across state lines must go through an FFL and a NICS check by law. The only sale/transfer allowed without a NICS check is between two residents of the same state when the seller has no reason to believe or suspect that the purchaser is prohibited. Realistically that leaves a very narrow window of purchases that are unlawful but the seller has plausible deniability.

> The only sale/transfer allowed without a NICS check is between two residents of the same state when the seller has no reason to believe or suspect that the purchaser is prohibited.

Say the seller transfers a gun they've owned for several years to an out-of-state prohibited person. The gun turns up in crime. The original purchases lies and says they sold it just one year after ownership to an in-state person, and haven't possessed this gun for several years. There's no requirement for sellers to keep record of who they sold firearms to, so it's hard to prove this defense wrong.

It is legal to buy a firearm under your name as a gift. Straw purchase has a very specific meaning. Buying on a Monday then selling to someone on Tuesday is not a straw purchase.

A straw purchase is someone asking you to purchase on their behalf and doing things like providing funds, telling you how to fill out the form and/or coming to the store with you. Those are the people that end up convicted.

You can think of it similar to tax evasion. Failing to declare $10,000 in income because you didn't understand the tax code is not a crime. Intentionally hiding $10,000 of income is.

The GP was stating that federal authorities aren't serious about stopping straw purchases.

If I purchase for myself, and then sell it to someone else, when does that constitute a straw purchase?

> If I purchase for myself

If that is your earnest intent when you bought it, then ostensibly it would be legal. However...

Laws aren't computer code; gray areas get hashed out in court. How often you've done this and the amount of time that passed between the purchase and sale would be considered, as well as any paper trail you might have left. Simply put, there is no firm answer to your question. Talk to a real lawyer if you think you're wading into a gray area like that.

> Laws aren't computer code; gray areas get hashed out in court. How often you've done this and the amount of time that passed between the purchase and sale would be considered, as well as any paper trail you might have left. Simply put, there is no firm answer to your question. Talk to a real lawyer if you think you're wading into a gray area like that.

Exactly.

My point was that GP skipped straight over the fact that this is significantly difficult to prosecute, and stated with no evidence that the federal authorities must "not be serious" about it.

Or do the transfer via a licensed dealer. Most gun shops will do this for a small fee.

Buying a gun for somebody else is legal if it's a gift. But if it's a "gift" in exchange for some favor or service, that doesn't count. No quid pro quo.

depends on the state