News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by MBCook on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:00AM (#31895518)
It may be 60% on MacOS but that’s a very tiny market. Overall Chrome is quite dominant.

Numbers I found say on desktop Chrome is at 70%. Include the 7.75% for Edge (because it’s basically Chrome) and that’s almost 80%. FF at least exists and is similar to Safari.

On mobile it’s at 65%. Safari is the only other browser above 5%.

Chrome is dangerously close to total monopoly.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by agust on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:21AM (#31895818)
The size of macOS market is not relevant for the point being made here. What matters is that macOS is very similar to iOS in that it is owned by Apple, Safari is available on it, and comes pre-installed. The only difference is that on macOS browser competition is not banned by Apple. Yet, Safari still has around 60% market share on macOS.

So there is a good chance that even if competition where allowed on iOS, Safari, which currently has more than 90% market share, would at the very least not fall down below 60%, preventing Chrome from becoming dominant. It is even more likely because most users on iOS actually believe they can install the real Chrome, so nothing will change in their eyes.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by AlexandrB on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:51AM (#31896283)
> The size of macOS market is not relevant for the point being made here.

I disagree. There are already plenty of sites that are broken on macOS Safari because it's a niche platform. The only saving grace is that websites still have to support iOS Safari. If vendors were able to say "we only support Chrome" on iOS as well, I think that 60% macOS Safari marketshare would drop rapidly due to necessity.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by innocenat on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:25PM (#31896849)
If you want website to not be broken on Safari, the solution is to give developer without a Mac the ability to test on Safari. I wouldn't be able to fix my site if it's broken on Mac Safari if I don't have a Mac.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by danShumway on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:00PM (#31897393)
Can't upvote this enough.

I support an Open web, I test my websites on Firefox and Chrome, I even occasionally do Edge testing, and I develop my websites often primarily in Firefox. But I'm not buying an iPhone or a laptop just to test websites, so I don't test in Safari.

Every other browser has a way to emulate in Linux, I can even download free VMs from Microsoft to test IE11 in Windows (and Edge now runs in Linux). If Apple isn't willing to make its operating system available to me to test on then I don't see why I should feel obligated to test on it.

And given that there is some Mac-specific behavior for Safari/Firefox that I've run into (differences in how blur works), and I generally can't assume that all of my stuff is going to work perfectly, I'm either going to fall back on progressive enhancement or (in the case of a complicated webapp) I'm going to tell users that Safari is unsupported and they're continuing at their own risk.

I'd love to support Safari. All Apple has to do is give me a way to.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by MatthiasPortzel on Monday June 27, 2022 @04:04PM (#31900030)
Apple provides Linux builds of WebKit.

=> https://WebKit.org/downloads

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by TheTon on Monday June 27, 2022 @03:59PM (#31899967)
Do you test in Epiphany? That’s what the WebKit project recommends you do.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by depressedpanda on Monday June 27, 2022 @05:18PM (#31900939)
I test in Epiphany, and have resolved some Safari bugs that way.

Unfortunately that's not enough, for two reasons:

1. Safari is the only browser that is still tied to OS release versions, the WebKit version used by Epiphany is rarely the same, so results will likely differ

2. Epiphany has no mobile emulation mode. (E.g., I had to work around around an annoying input zoom bug in Safari/iOS by blindly applying the least stupid solution I found searching the net)

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by AlexandrB on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:38PM (#31897071)
That's a good point and probably a major strategic error on Apple's part.

However in the IE era, even though Netscape/Firefox was free for everyone to test on, many large companies made their sites for "IE Only" because it's easier and cheaper. What I worry about is that, even if Safari kept up with web standards and was mostly compatible in terms of the basics, sites would start requiring APIs that only Chrome wants to support (e.g. FLoC). This would give Google a lot of leverage to push its own technologies on users (Amp also comes to mind).

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by mtomweb on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:09AM (#31895624)
MacOS is the only market Safari actually competes in and has the same advantage by being the default.

I would actually expect the most likely outcome is Apple would fight hard to build a better browser to stem any losses to other browsers. They'll have at least 2 years to do it, so they can catch up in that time with enough investment.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by spideymans on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:23AM (#31895843)
Recall how Google gimped Windows Phone support on the web, presumably to advantage their own platform and web services. My fear is that they'd do the same to Safari on iOS. They could break support on iOS, to force users to Chrome, where they can better track and monetize their users.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by smoldesu on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:20AM (#31895795)
They definitely have the capital to make it happen. Every time I boot up Safari after a MacOS update, I'm consistently wowed by how little of their revenue actually goes in to making a comfortable, feature-complete browser. It's almost like you're using a different, nerfed internet with Safari, but maybe that's just me being angry that uBlock Origin doesn't work anymore.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by robertoandred on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:14PM (#31896683)
There are plenty of ad blockers for Safari, not sure what nerfed experience you're referring to.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by danShumway on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:06PM (#31897477)
This has been debated to death, but there are no ad blockers on Safari that will work as well as uBlock Origin, because Safari doesn't have all of the APIs/hooks exposed that would be necessary to implement uBlock Origin's more advanced features.

It's the same problem that developers were talking about with Chrome's Manifest V3 -- to the point where popular adblockers for Safari like Adguard actually run outside of the browser so that they're not quite as limited as they otherwise would be by Safari's apis.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by raydev on Monday June 27, 2022 @04:12PM (#31900141)
> There are plenty of ad blockers for Safari

And none of them work as well as uBlock Origin on Chrome.

Trust me, I tried. I even paid money to try a few extensions out on Safari in the hopes I would get a better experience, but even that doesn't work.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by NegativeLatency on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @12:00PM (#31909417)
(As a safari user) I've found running a pihole to be a good solution

Also been trying out this webkit based browser for macos: https://browser.kagi.com (supports ublock origin)

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by smoldesu on Monday June 27, 2022 @02:27PM (#31898615)
And which of those ad blockers are Open Source?
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by robertoandred on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @04:57AM (#31917845)
AdGuard
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by noisem4ker on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:50PM (#31898109)
The nerfed experience of addons only specifying a significantly limited list of blocking rules, giving up being able to autonomously allow or deny each request with arbitrary parameters, surrogate scripts (replacing the original, tracking ones with privacy-friendly reimplementations) and cosmetically alter the webpage (e.g. fixing the layout with missing ads).

Partial source: https://github.com/el1t/uBlock-Safari/issues/158

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by JamesSwift on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:55AM (#31896347)
Using that logic of Edge being counted as Chrome, why dont we consider 100% of the iOS browser market to be Safari?
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by MBCook on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:19PM (#31896759)
Chrome was forked from WebKit but had been it’s own engine for a very long time at this point. They share ancestry but are pretty different.

Edge is literally built off a relatively recent version of Chromium. It’s not a separate engine.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by JamesSwift on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:23PM (#31896830)
Every iOS browser today runs on Apple Webkit. No exceptions. Thats an apple rule.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by MBCook on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:01PM (#31897398)
Sorry. I didn’t notice you were talking about iOS only.

I would hope mobile browser share numbers already take this into account, though I don’t know.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by JamesSwift on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:19PM (#31897679)
I think they pretty clearly dont since iOS is definitely more than 5% of the mobile market.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by cma on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:10AM (#31895649)
Maybe Safari mobile would have to make a better UI with more competition, and could then keep more users.