I'd be proud of it, if they were a good person, took care of themselves, took care of the people around them, and were truly happy in their lives. Some people are perfectly happy working low-level positions in restaurants, sanitation, retail, and the like for their lives, and maybe maintaining a few hobbies and relationships that give them personal meaning off their work hours.

It's only a problem if they aren't actually content. I've known tons of people working minimum wage who sneer at "elites", don't seek higher things, and get high all the time, but really resent the fact that they never did anything with their lives. They don't build their hobbies, they don't seek higher levels of employment or skill, and they constantly talk about how they want to do great things that they never do.

There will always be an infinite amount of achievement that you never accomplished. There will always be an infinite number of things you never did. The best thing you can do is prioritize, accomplish the things that you really want to accomplish, and try to do your best to be happy with what you are able to do. Live your life happily, and make the people around you happy.

What if we took a more extreme version of this? Like your kid builds and sells a startup (this being HN), so now they're set for life financially, and they decide what they'll do with it is buy a lifetime supply of heroin, hire a caretaker to take care of their basic needs, and basically get high indefinitely. They're happy, they're not hurting anybody, they're even providing a living for someone. Assume they're perfectly happy too. Is that good?

I mean, you can certainly argue that the meaning of life is entirely arbitrary, and there is indeed nothing wrong with that if that's what someone wants to do. But I feel like the world is generally a better place when people in it strive for more than mere contentment. And for me personally, a couple of the key things that give life positive meaning are building relationships with other people, and striving to better myself—learning things, building skills, etc. I'm glad I do these things, rather than living an alternate life where I was equally (or maybe even if I were somehow more) subjectively happy, but less active.

> I'd be proud of it, if they were a good person, took care of themselves, took care of the people around them, and were truly happy in their lives

I'd be happy for them. I wouldn't be proud. An infinite amount of possible achievements is no excuse not to strive for anything.

> An infinite amount of possible achievements is no excuse not to strive for anything.

If they're striving for happiness and they are happy, mission accomplished right? I assume they'd still have their own goals and hobbies outside of work or things which bring in money. Why assume those things don't matter?

I didn’t say anything about work. I know people with interesting and worthwhile accomplishments or hobbies outside the field of career advancement. This is great and I’d be pleased if my child found something, money or no, to pursue passionately. I also know people (stoners being overrepresented) who are completely passive consumers watching life drift by, who only play games/watch shows and don’t do anything creative or challenging. It’s not a lifestyle I would take pride in. I don’t mean that as an attack, exactly - pride is earned, and to earn it you have to actually do something.

that's fair enough. I've never met anyone (stoner or not) who wasn't striving for something. I mean, in some cases it might not have been more than status in an MMO guild, or building/maintaining collections, or personal writing, but everybody I've ever met has something they're into and love doing.

I can't even imagine what a life of passive, mindless, consumption without any creative outlet would even be like. It's frankly depressing to think about!

FWIW, I have heard it said that the people who always expected to work at hourly-wage level are happier than the the college graduates next to them who didn't.

I'll bet the lack of so much student debt helps a lot!

doped into stupefaction is not exactly a scenario I'd describe as "striving for happiness"

> I'd be proud of it, if they were a good person, took care of themselves

I honestly don't know how anyone (good person or not) can properly take care of themselves on a Taco Bell hourly salary.

Yes, It is the workers fault that they do not get enough funds to properly take care of themselves while working full time.

Really dumb take.

It is possible that some jobs are meant to be stepping stones, not permanent positions (ie: you outgrow them, and someone lower on the learning totem pole steps into the role for a time).

Absolutely, and you should be paid enough to properly take care of yourself while you have those positions.

So I absolutely agree with your opinion, and I think everyone should be paid a livable wage and should be able to live a meaningful life off their work pay.

That said, I think the argument of “stepping stone” job salaries is less crazy in the context of people who are dépendants of other adults. If you’re a teen and you live with parents who provide food and housing and basics like that, you’re needs from the wages are different. Plenty of jobs make sense as “silly shit teens do for spending money” that would also be considered “awful life for full time adult worker”. Some of these jobs only exist because there are short term employees willing to do it for low pay. It’s fine IMO that they exist but it’d be wrong to assume that an adult should have to live of it.

I think we should push for livable wages and ensure everyone can be happy and healthy from their salary. I don’t know if it’s even possible to protect the adults in “low skill” jobs without making it hard to have “stupid summer part time jobs” for teens. If it is possible, then we should allow those teens to have their dumb low pay jobs and not raise too much of a fuss.

This seems to be from the view point of a top percent home.

35 million Americans are on snap. 53 million Americans used a food pantry in 2021 (thesev groups don't always intersect)

Whether it's urban, rural, or suburban (high percentage shift since 2008), the percent of Americans that have parents that can provide food, shelter - much less plan for education and their own retirement is not a very high number for this phrasing.

Imagine if the expectation was that a part time fast food job could pay even half of college expenses.

> I don’t know if it’s even possible to protect the adults in “low skill” jobs without making it hard to have “stupid summer part time jobs” for teens.

Why not just limit some jobs or minimum wages to teens who can demonstrate that they're already financially supported? Most people earning minimum wage are adults, but we could require companies to pay adults or teens supporting themselves higher wages. We could also set age limits on certain types of work, but then you run the risk of not having enough kids looking for work with everything else they've got going on.

‘Should’ != ‘is’ or ‘will be’.

>It is possible that some jobs are meant to be stepping stones, not permanent positions

Those same jobs definitely only operate outside of school hours, to help promote their employees growth, right?

Is the implication that we should promote cannabis to help people be content living low on the hierarchy in capitalism? Whose side are we on here?

They wouldn't be able too. It's a great job for a high school kid or one with a low IQ that has limited options to start with. But it should be temporary to teach you how to be responsible, show up on time, do your job correctly, etc.

You can be proud of achievements.

The harder the achievement, the harder it is to automate that achievement, the prouder I will be.

Working at Taco Bell is not that hard to obtain and may very well not exist in 10 years.

Everyone is focusing on whether being content with working at Taco Bell is sufficient in life, but I think the more interesting question is whether they truly are content. That's not for me to answer, but if the South Park quote has any truth (and I think it has more than a little), in 50 years' time, they themselves might not be happy with how things went in retrospect. In that case, it's possible they weren't really content all that time, but were using weed to avoid deeply feeling that discontent.

I say this as someone with at least a little experience, not to be judgmental.

> in 50 years' time, they themselves might not be happy with how things went in retrospect

There are moments in later life where everyone feels that way.

Statistically, some paths might be show up in studies as more reliable in terms of late life contentment, but on an individual level, we all end up noticing that we left a lot of doors unopened, and can find ourselves stuck wishing we made different choices or had different opportunities.

Innumerable careerists and dedicated parents and globe-trotters find themselves stuck discontent, bitter, or resentful. And innumerable people of all paths look back, wonder what could have been different, and reconcile themselves to contentment again. And heck — some people just die before reaching their goals at all.

There’s no point speculating whether the chill dude at the Taco Bell is doing it right. They know themselves better than any of us do, and may easily end up more durably content than any of us.

> There are moments in later life where everyone feels that way.

old Successful Career guy: should have spent more time with family and friends <starts sobbing>

old Poor Artist guy: should have worked harder and more conservative then I could have afforded a house, now I have to rent <gets all whiney>

--

the question is the mental state developed. are you somebody who regrets everything and is never happy with what you have because you alwaya need more? or are you able to be grateful and enjoy calmly small things and accept how life is?

> There’s no point speculating whether the chill dude at the Taco Bell is doing it right.

I agree, but I think there is value in speculating whether the contentment we feel on weed is really just distraction from discontent. This applies to far more than just weed, of course, but my own experience is that weed is particularly tricky in this regard.

Sure, and you could raise exactly the same question to all the people on prescribed psychiatric regimens. They all come with tradeoffs and change the nature of how we experience our lives. That's the point of them.

I don't have the insight to guess whether George should prefer to be skinnier and hornier but too depressed to meet his career goals, any more than it's my business to guess that Jane should put down the blunts and be more tuned in with all the drama in the news.

I'm busy enough trying to make those choices for myself.

That's fair, and I think it is also responsible to share our experiences with these things with others. Mine (and friends') is that weed is especially insidious in this regard, but it is indeed up to each person to decide for themselves.

> but I think the more interesting question is whether they truly are content.

That's a big rabbit hole right there. Ancient wisdom says that there's nothing in the material world which can give you true happiness/contentment/satisfaction. The world is transient and so is the happiness you get from it. Moksha/Nirvana/Samadhi is the only way to become truly happy, forever.

Weed invariably leads you to such questions. No wonder it's the gateway drug to spirituality.

People who ruined their lives with hard work and stress to make a billionaire richer while buying a useless polluting fancy car and big house, also have regrets.

Absolutely! And if we can identify factors which lead to us behaving in ways that make us feel such regrets, then this can help us lead better lives. Obviously weed isn't the only culprit.

Why not? My first job was Wendy's and honestly... It's not the least satisfying job I've had. My unwillingness to do it now has more to do with having become accustomed to the luxury that comes with a software developer salary than anything negative about fast food (same reason I won't go back to being a security guard, which was hands down the best job I ever had).

I feel like there's a strong argument to be made that the person working at Taco Bell and is satisfied with their life is better off than a random cube dweller slowly losing their soul in the name of material comforts.

Maybe you can pull off security guard and software development at the same time! It's something I always joked about doing - but that was before everyone and their dog became remote.

Nowadays software development is so meeting heavy that nothing gets done but you're "working" all the time.

What did you enjoy about being a security guard?

A bit of context that might be important: Most of my time spent as a security guard was spent either taking the closing shift at an outlet mall on the outskirts of town, or a night or weekend shift at a large office building. I rarely did things like work at a busy mall during the day.

The best part frankly was that there was so little I actually needed to do. I filled out a few forms, I walked the whole site X times of Y period (usually once every 1-2 hours, but depended on the site). Beyond that I was largely just expected to be at my post, reasonably alert and professional looking. My time was my own to do homework, study, read, program, or whatever. I realize that a job without anything to do is a nightmare for some people, but I've never had a problem filling my own time.

Other pros:

* I knew my regular sites almost like my home. Sure during they day there were tons of people, but by the night/weekend when I took over, I was basically the only person in the building and it felt like it was mine.

* Eating lunch on the roof overlooking the city.

* Some of the chillest co-workers I've ever met, from the maintenance crew to the other guards.

* 12-hours shifts meant I was usually only working 3 days a week.

* On holidays me and the maintenance guy would have private movie showings in the building auditorium.

Cons:

* 99% boring, but when things get exciting they get real exciting. Only time I've had guns pointed in my direction, and they were cops.

* I think getting off work and going to bed a 7 a.m. for years has permanently kind of borked my sleep.

It's this kind of motivation that fuels the efforts to make sure low-level jobs stay unpleasant, unsafe, and uncompensated. It's the "starter job" philosophy, where some jobs are only fit for an inferior class of people who should have no pride, although they produce and distribute almost everything material that we use. Children, immigrants, foreigners...

I'm reminded every day that my decision to never work with my hands again was a good one. Nobody respects people who provide for you, that's slave's work, mother's work(, teacher's work, nurse's work.) The ultimate CEO-guru would lie on a cushion all day, being washed and shaved by his VPs, periodically emitting syllables in an unknown language that would be interpreted by other VPs as commands to direct the people who actually do the work.

You're assuming that the two content children work at Taco Bell. For all you know they could have a (to whatever degree) higher-paying job doing literally anything else yet still be content with where they're at.

not sure what stereotype you have in mind but I don't see why this should be something keeping a parent from being proud. it's simple, yet honest work and that's about it. so what? not everybody wants or has to be a surgeon ffs

But taco bell is the pinnacle of your kid's career ambition? I know as a parent I'd be very disappointed.

Not a parent, but I’d personally be more proud as a parent of a Taco Bell cook than, e.g. adtech or a high frequency trading firm (of course, sometimes these places are great for training or getting a name on a resume, but if that was my child’s career ambition I’d be sad). The only issue I would have would be whether they’re making enough to support their other goals.

I'm a parent. Yeah, Taco Bell isn't "ideal". But hey, is my kid happy? Are they keeping their life together? Are they staying out of trouble? Are their bills paid?

If the answer to all of those questions - especially the first - is yes, then I am happy. Of course I will push them to strive for more than that, but what they do with their lives when they leave the house is up to them, and at a bare minimum, I just want them to be happy with whatever they choose.

if "career ambitions" are a major part of how you value your children then you are the one with a problem.

We homeschool our three children and put in a lot of time and effort to prepare them to provide for themselves. Do I care of they become the CEO of a company? Of course not but I do want them to achieve what they are capable of. I know my kids and their abilities. Taco bell is not their pinnacle.

Why?

Billions across the world would be incredibly happy with their kids getting to do something like this.

If you aren’t happy with a content child, sounds like you had children for all of the wrong reasons & would be a horrible, potentially abusive parent.

I understand the underlying sentiment, but this is an awfully aggressive way to get your point across. The irony is that we tend to be aggressive when we're triggered due to unresolved traumas in ourselves -- which we then pass on to our own kids.

I'm not here to psychoanalyze you, but food for thought.

Fair, but the context was a parent publicly shaming their children for living peaceful, eco-friendly, simple lives, which is far worse.

My friend who is a (really smart) SWE in Canada said that compared to his own country, he could live here on a fast food salary, smoke weed, make music and still have a better life than his home country.

We forget that a job where you get free food and a low wage for simple work is (historically speaking) extremely luxurious.

Of course it is.

Why not?

Because at some point, the $9.50/hr job at Taco Bell will run its course, and your child will end up with severely limited resources. Together with a lack of funding and poor health care options, your children will probably return back home to "evaluate their situation". At that point, they will start wondering why they have been left behind in society, why the system is rigged against them, etc.

As we all know (and frequently discussed here on HN), a minimal wage job results in limited housing options, limited healthcare options, limited educational options, etc. As a parent, it is my responsibility to prepare my children to become self sufficient beyond the minimum wage job. For the sake of themselves and their children.

Why would you want someone to never learn that the system is rigged against them? So they blame themselves for their oppression?

Millions of people will never rise above minmim wage jobs.

Why fix that for one person ,and not for all?

A Taco Bell worker probably has more free energy and intrest for tackling big problems like protesting against the oligarchs.

This is garbage. Work hard, plan hard, save money. Push through setbacks. Maybe you won't be a billionaire. But you can do pretty well in life. Don't blame others for your own laziness.

Just met a guy last month that spent 5 years working at a carwash at minimum wage. He saved up money the entire time. Got himself a van decked for mobile cleaning. He still works hard, but is making some serious money now.

Seen far more that just collect welfare checks, smoke pot and play videos or watch tv for 16 hours a day, while blaming "whomever" for their situation.

This descent from a job that pays bills to stereotypical taco bell to welfare checks had no premise in this subthread. Aren’t you by chance just angry at someone else who is not rushing to make your own American dream come true?

This is garbage. If a system is rigged, you try to improve it. You are just giving up and try to rationalize your inaction with fantasy stories.

Because they are not oppressed and the system is not rigged against them (at least in the US). Each person has plenty of opportunity to do better. It's all about choice. You can choose to stay with your low-paying job or put some effort into getting educated and move up. The key here is "effort".

And, the comment that millions of people will never rise above minimum wage jobs is laughable. With the amount of free/low-cost education (community college, free on-line classes, military GI Bill), and the huge shortage of skilled trade workers [0], anyone in the US can do better than minimum wage. It just takes effort.

[0] https://resources.skillwork.com/why-is-there-a-shortage-of-s...