The only people who don't think animals feel pain are people who don't spend time with animals. Every farmer since the neolithic has known that animals feel pain and are to some degree or another intelligent (we intentionally bred some of the intelligence out of many.) That has no bearing on whether someone eats meat or not. You have assumptions that most of the world do not share with you.
I feel bad if I see a fly slowly dying, but I'll still kill all houseflies that bother me. There's no contradiction in that. Death isn't suffering; quite the opposite.
I wish there was a halfway decent documentary that took a more balanced approach, because if your goal is "better animal welfare" rather than "the abolition of meat eating on moral grounds" then there's actually a lot to criticize and improve on. e.g. I thought "Food Inc" was a lot more even-handed, even though it still fell into some of the usual traps.
I’d argue that industrialized slaughter is just never going to look good regardless of what facility it is. Lab grown meat is something I would support but as it stands today the meat industry is an abject horror and deserves to be exposed.
An example: there's this classic image you see all the time of the cow strung up by its hindquarters, kicking and flailing as it's moved along the assembly line. The problem is that this narrative is literally fraudulent. That cow is already dead, its brain has been destroyed by a bolt gun, and the reason it's "kicking" is because its 100% dead carcass is being shocked with electricity to induce rigor mortis. It's actually illegal to slaughter a cow any other way in a slaughterhouse.
For me at least the reason I hunt is because I love the personal connection I get to what I eat. Being responsible for my food is incredibly satisfying. Lab grown meat to me seems like the opposite of that.
Have you ever met cows in the farm/paddock? Most cows I've come across are huge assholes, like the kind of person that hangs around a bar trying to start fights. In my mind they deserve to be eaten.
I think it's difficult to untangle their benevolence from their self-protection. But I did see several signs of curiosity and inter-species care between cows.
You also have to consider that we're the assholes :)
(Note: In that case, no, I don't think we should be killed, just improve)
There is a spectrum of characters - even among the animal kingdom - including us humans.
Here is a counter argument: https://love.heavenofanimals.com/2021/11/17/man-demonstrates...
I don’t have such optimism towards people. Look at how poorly we treat each other. If we actually had some strong empathetic tendencies as a species we wouldn’t kill each other. There are many species which don’t. Instead I’ve got a coworker who’s gladly told me about killing his cows calves in front of their mothers and all manner of other things. “Because I’m a vegan.” And he revels in those mother cows suffering. Something like around 1/100 of humans (or males?-googled) are psychopaths.
I don’t worry about a super intelligence spawning from AI and wiping out humanity. At best that’s just projection. I figure a super intellect is equally or more likely to be benevolent since nonzero sum games require cooperation (or something like this). If that’s wrong then at least I suspect a super intelligence would see cooperation as greater than decimation.
Who takes joy in killing babies in front of their mothers? And then gloating about it. Only a seriously effed up mind.
What's the solution? Report to HR?
That being said slaughtering cows doesn't seem that bad. After all there are such jobs at slaugherhouses. Perhaps he was just teasing you making it more dramatic.
I wouldn't think these war-criminals come out of nowhere. they probably get their head start in torturing neighbourhood cats, gloating about how much they love meat and don't care about the torture, and how they personally love to bash heads in[1] and murder children in front of mothers.
[1] https://theguardian.com/environment/2020/may/19/millions-of-...
But animal cruelty is actually one of the weaker arguments for becoming vegan because it requires, as I said earlier, an a-ha realization that animals are aware, intelligent, feel pain and sadness, deserve more from us as the stewards of this world.
Like people can high five over loving bacon and what have you, but honestly the eating habits of most people are deplorable and selfish and they can numbly read about ecological devastation caused by industrialized animal farming and the rampant use of antibiotics which in turn is creating super bacteria immune to it (let us not forget covid came from a meat market as well as the seasonal avian and bovine “flus” which manifest constantly).. you guys can cry in carnivore all you want but the worst thing of the situation is that eating meat or drinking dairy is not necessary: it is all done for pleasure. It’s just pathetic that people can look at all that and reply “.. but cheese”.
I don't buy that. People are sensitive to certain images. I can't stand to dental surgery videos either and definitely I don't think children would get any benefit from watching such material but that doesn't make dental surgery something people shouldn't do.
That being said as a child I've been exposed to animal slaugther on farms and I still eat beef, chicken and pork(very, very rarely). I don't think seeing how the animals are killed makes you vegan.
I don't enjoy watching animals being killed though but we are mortals and animals are mortals too so in the end it makes little difference if we kill or do not kill animals. We have the same end destination. I think this makes us less sensitive to killing animals and even our own. The difference between us and the animals is that they lack enough intelligence to produce anything meaningful(i.e technology, innovation etc) during their lifespan thus the reason why their scope in life is to become good food for us.
We should minimise the pain inflicted upon animals and create better living conditions. It's good for animals and it's good for the consumers as well. Legislation already exists in Europe and will only get stronger.
Same logic can be applied to children until a certain age, disabled, sick, old and/or mentally handicapped people. Kettle is easy to take advantage of, it's convenient and almost everything they "produce" can be sold (milk, meat, skin). Not showing enough compassion for sentient beings while having the ability and options to not have them as "a tasty meal" makes you a bad person in that regard. You can be social worker, a teacher, doctor or overall caring person, and have other great character traits, because nothing has to be black and white. Having superior intelligence and using that as an argument to justify exploitation of other living beings is a very sad way to look at all of this in my eyes.
No, not at all.
Soldiers work as part of a team, which is part of a larger team. You can't count on a psychopath to care about the team or the larger organization.
What (should) motivate a solider to kill is the same emotion as a sheep dog protecting the flock, or a mother bear protecting her cubs.
What motivates a psychopath to kill is harder to say, but it is not something which is generally recognized as morally good.
Predators exist, and humans whether we like it or not are scavenger omnivorous predators. There aren't vegan bears or indigenous vegan human tribes for a reason.
Vegan bears and native tribes are irrelevant, you live in a modern world/society and both are poor attempts at deflection that don't hold up under even the slightest scrutiny.
Even if you refuse to consider the argument for veganism, the way we treat the animals we eat is an abject horror, modern animal farming is indefensible.
Any suggested reading for someone like me?
If 200/2500 really is the goal then I'm not sure you can do it without meat, or at least without lots of protein powder supplements. The highest protein/calorie ratio for normal food I can think of is from soy milk or lentils, which are both roughly the same at around 1g/protein per 11-13 calories, and you'd have to eat those exclusively.
I’d start with Eating Animals. The author started the book to explore how his food ends up on his plate, but the book becomes about his gradual transition to veganism as he learns about animal agriculture.
A Plea for the Animals should be the second one. Written by a neurologist/monk who eloquently makes the argument that there is nothing in our biology which justifies subjugating animal.
Then Animal Liberation if you’re looking for a classic. It’s older, a bit more esoteric, but decent.
Most people love to share outrage over abuse of conventional pets or bizarre and seemingly psychotic behaviour of eating dogs yet feel nothing to the slaughter of a pig. It is my opinion that most people ignore and switch “off” at these discussions as a way to maintain plausible deniability. Like people get mad at PETA showing videos on the street of slaughterhouses in a “how dare you” sort of way but really I’m of the attitude of how dare they.
Cows are very intelligent, have long term memories, and feel desolation when their calves are taken away from them. Cats as well. The whole cats vs dogs argument is just mega weird to me and like you say really emphasizes the cognitive dissonance at play in most people who consider themselves kind to animals yet eat meat.