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Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by DantesKite on Monday June 13, 2022 @07:19PM (#31732940)
Interestingly enough, scientists have been able to induce myopia in all sorts of animals by making them wear contacts.

My suspicion is that staring at objects closely and under dimly lit conditions causes pseusdo-myopia which is later exacerbated by wearing glasses, causing actual axial elongation in the eyeballs through hormesis. Especially since this is what seems to happen in other animals when we dissect them.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by batter on Monday June 13, 2022 @10:55PM (#31734252)
Doesn't this prove that glasses/lenses ruin your eyesight?
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by R0b0t1 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @12:34AM (#31734781)
They do. Not just for me, but for many Americans in some study I found previous, and many people I've talked to. However there is a conflicting Philippine (iirc, or Malay) study that concludes the opposite. Most go with this latter study, though both are likely correct, myself having experienced the former.

Having explained this to my optometrists they will take me seriously and give me most any prescription I want, though unfortunately I don't exactly know what to do. I just make sure I have dedicated outdoor glasses and limit screen time with them.

I avoided wearing contacts for a while due to this but also other concerns. I think this may have limited my romantic success somewhat, at least at the time. In retrospect contacts with readers may have been the better option.

I keep holding out for LASIK but don't know how much longer I should.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by yourapostasy on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @03:56AM (#31736004)
> I keep holding out for LASIK but don't know how much longer I should.

I think the Holy Grail should be eye surgery that is a permanent fix. Current options wear off with age (and not that many decades at that), and then you are back to corrective lenses. There are usually very few who can qualify for another surgery later in life...and then it wears off again anyways. It's a consumable elective surgery that consumes the benefit and the body, so in my opinion it is a net loss over the long haul.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by nsonha on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @04:04AM (#31736051)
Any source for that they wears off? I've never heard it
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by 411111111111111 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @10:18AM (#31739889)
From my understanding of lasik, it basically just etches the lens on your eye.

Must people need different lenses over the years, so it's inherently a temporary fix. And one that comes with the risk of going blind and is almost guaranteed to come with various sight issues a few years after the operation such as having more issues seeing in the dark ("night blindness") etc. Wearing contacts comes with it's own risks however, so if glasses aren't an option for the patient, LASIK isn't that dangerous.

I could've gotten the operation for free (paid by my insurance) but decided against it, as my superlight glasses really aren't that bad and the risks just weren't worth it to me.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by automatic6131 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @04:39AM (#31736241)
It doesn't wear off, however as the eye muscles weaken in old age, you become farsighted. This is why you have to wear glasses again.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by johnisgood on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @04:32AM (#31736193)
They do ruin your eyesight. There is an experiment you can do: if you watch your screen without glasses for an hour (make sure you do not watch it from up too close, the further away you are the better, let it be a bit blurry but still readable), a weaker pair of glasses will work, too.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by tmlb on Monday June 13, 2022 @07:38PM (#31733079)
> My suspicion is that staring at objects closely and under dimly lit conditions causes pseusdo-myopia

Are you implying that cell phones could be a factor?

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by DantesKite on Monday June 13, 2022 @07:49PM (#31733135)
That wasn't my intention, although I imagine they do play a role.

The human eye (specifically the ciliary muscles) are most at "rest" when staring at objects in the distance.

The human eye doesn't seem to be as well-suited for staring at distance less than ~20 feet for long periods of time.

I imagine learning how to read and write in general, the shift from an agrarian society to cognitive labor, and the invention of glasses all were just as important factors.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by forum_ghost on Monday June 13, 2022 @11:24PM (#31734405)
Myopia is also correlated with spending less time outdoors.

Your theory about 20 ft is literally correct.

Atropine is successfully used to relax the cilliary muscles.

However, there is lots of anecdata that rigid contacts don’t make your eyesight worse over time.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by graeme on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @12:22AM (#31734719)
Interesting, why would rigid contacts lead to less degradation?
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by forum_ghost on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @10:00PM (#31748302)
just guesses, because they are so infrequently worn these days, is that it somehow prevents eyeball deformation due to its rigidity and so the axial elongation does not occur.

I'm a little sceptical about that theory, but my own rx did not go increase much when I wore RGPs. After that I did have some progression, but also a million other things changed, so who knows.

RGPs however, are quite distinct in that they give absolutely perfect vision. better than soft contacts by a mile. Maybe some refractive thing as well, optometrist told me numerous times under-correction would lead to further progression.

Ortho-K is popular in Asia for prevention, those are rigid lenses worn at night. Deforms cornea a little, so it's like a reversible lasik thing. So, in this case, not only its rigid lenses, they also have weird geometry. Many report significant success.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by nsonha on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @12:17AM (#31734687)
People whould wear reading glasses even before myopia. And when they do get myopia, they should NOT wear prescribed glass while reading/working, but a reading glasses that factor in their myopia.

I dont understand why people especially shortsighted people still use the same glasses for everything. Why don't octometrists know better?

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by 8note on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @12:33AM (#31734779)
People wear the same glasses for everything because it is hard remembering where your glasses are, carrying them around, and swapping back and forth every couple seconds.

Its a horrible user experience

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by nsonha on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @02:48AM (#31735535)
That's hyperbole, you only need to wear a working pair 9 to 5 at your desk and a normal pair the rest of the time.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by arghwhat on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @03:11AM (#31735689)
You only look at things relatively close to you from 9 to 5? You don't have computers or TVs at home? A smartphone? Cooking instructions?

It's not a hyperbole, glasses are massively inconvenient to those of us handicapped without, and having to hot-swap then depending on subject is massively more inconvenient.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by nsonha on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @03:25AM (#31735793)
It's hyperbole because you consistently ignore the fact that eyes can change focus for the short term, that's like the one thing they do. It's straining your eyes for long periods, at the same focal point, such as while working, that we need to help with.

PS: you are right, maybe instead of only at the desk, just wear a "near sight" pair all the time, when you're indoor, and a far sight pair when you are out. Point is you dont have to hot swap.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by arghwhat on Sunday June 19, 2022 @09:06AM (#31798976)
This significantly underestimates the eye strain from using the wrong glasses or no glasses. "Long periods" is minutes in my case.

And yes, most will just use short-range glasses all day as their only pair, which is exactly the thing you insisted that you did not understand ("I dont understand why people especially shortsighted people still use the same glasses for everything. Why don't octometrists know better?").

Sometimes it might make sense to just ask those with the handicap rather than make baseless assumptions about their situation as an "outsider".

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by jowdones on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @02:53AM (#31735561)
Well I have -2 diopters glasses for myopia, started wearing them around the age of 30 I think (I am now 44). I never use them when reading, effectively they bother me. But have to use them when using the computer monitor, otherwise it's either blurry or have to get too close for comfort. It's a continuous "put the glasses" when looking at the screen, take the glasses when scribbling a paper or reading a book / phone. Got used to it.

Also don't use them while walking, they bother me. I feel like my eyes dry out or something, very unpleasant. It's a bit blurry but don't really notice it, also -2 is not really advanced myopia. I can't read car plates from the distance but I sure see the car coming and know not to bump into people.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by xboxnolifes on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @01:14AM (#31734991)
> I dont understand why people especially shortsighted people still use the same glasses for everything.

Bad UX for switching, and my "reading" glasses have too short of a clear vision range to use at my computer without having to lean in.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by __alexs on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @04:02AM (#31736043)
I'm not terribly short sighted but also can't see clearly further than about 20cm. I have to use them for everything. I think far sighted people tend to have a more usable range of functioning vision left.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by zargon on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @02:29AM (#31735405)
Why do I need glasses for reading if I'm nearsighted? Unless you mean "ignores" nearsightedness and corrects astigmatism only? (Those are what I use for computer use, when I bother to wear them.)
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by nsonha on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @02:45AM (#31735518)
I don't mean literal reading glasses, just apply the same principle: glasses designated to a task, which for most people would be using computer. All prescription glasses are for your "resting" vision to be on far objects. You'd want the resting vision to be on the computer.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by alar44 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @03:32AM (#31735836)
That's just not how it works.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by nsonha on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @03:35AM (#31735857)
Really useful comment, what is "that" and how is "that" wrong?
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by alar44 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @01:14PM (#31742633)
Parent is confusing a focal point with where your eyes are focusing. Your vision gets corrected entirely, not just for certain focal lengths.

It's just a comment that so wrong it's not wrong.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by nsonha on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @06:22PM (#31746770)
My vision gets corrected entirely, that doesn't mean that there isn't a focal lenght at which my eyes are most comfortable.

Prescription glasses restore your range of focus to original which is why I said it aims for looking at far objects, at relaxed eyes.

Problem with myopia is that you overwork your eyes' muscles by staying in close focal lengths too long.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by johnisgood on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @04:35AM (#31736213)
If you are myopic, you are not supposed to wear glasses for reading, but most people I know do this, which just worsens it. You are supposed to be without them for as long as you can.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by nsonha on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @07:32AM (#31737540)
Yes that is if you are not advanced. One you are no longer able to read without glasses you should have a differrent prescription just for computer/reading
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by Double_a_92 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @03:39AM (#31735890)
There are reading glasses for short-sightedness? I just take my glasses off, and everything is just perfectly in focus.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by rerx on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @11:28AM (#31740916)
That may change past the age of 40 or so.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by jk7tarYZAQNpTQa on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @05:51AM (#31736680)
> Are you implying that cell phones could be a factor?

And books, too.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by ummonk on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @02:20AM (#31735361)
Is this controlled for the partially UV blocking effect of lenses though? I.e. is it the prescription in the lenses that does it or the lack of UV rat exposure?
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by Loic on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @02:30AM (#31735414)
It has been shown again and again that the eyes require exposition to the sun to produce locally vitamin D to form themselves correctly [0], [1].

Go out and play (no citations needed)!

[0]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30018147/

[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6951132/

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by DoingIsLearning on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:00AM (#31737849)
> the eyes require exposition to the sun to produce locally vitamin D to form themselves

I don't follow this. The articles use blood serum concentrations of Vitamin D in their methodology, are you saying there is a separate Vitamin D production/concentration in the eye's vitreous?

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by Loic on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @11:07AM (#31740592)
It is not clear if vitamin D in the blood directly affects the formation of the eye or if the creation of vitamin D directly in the eye because of the Sun exposure do so. Here is an article[0] which is easier to read than a study.

[0]: https://www.optometrytimes.com/view/time-outdoors-and-myopia...

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by vbezhenar on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @02:34AM (#31735437)
It’s fun that one freak suggests regularly looking at sun (with closed eyes, of course), as one of his therapies for myopia. May be there’s something to it.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by User23 on Monday June 13, 2022 @07:26PM (#31732986)
Exactly. For some reason this upsets people.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by lmm on Monday June 13, 2022 @08:27PM (#31733391)
On the contrary, there's nothing people love more than blaming any problems on what the kids these days are enjoying, regardless of evidence.

The evidence is actually pretty clear, what's causing this vast increase in myopia is not spending enough time in bright environments (i.e. outside) during one's formative years. In that regard cellphones (since they can be used outdoors) are a huge improvement over e.g. television.

If we actually cared about fixing the problem, we'd be making it easier for children to spend time outside and making outdoor environments more welcoming for them. But that would require parents to allow children some freedom, or maybe even actually make some lifestyle changes of their own, whereas the revealed preference of parents is to lock their children up indoors all day and night doing something that looks like "studying" (i.e. pointless drills).

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by jk7tarYZAQNpTQa on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @06:25AM (#31736891)
> what's causing this vast increase in myopia is not spending enough time in bright environments (i.e. outside) during one's formative years.

I'd like a source on that. AFAIK the leading factor is so called "near activities", or more specifically, lack of "far activities" (i.e. lack of looking at a distance, which makes your eyeballs get and keep proper shape and characteristics).

> In that regard cellphones (since they can be used outdoors) are a huge improvement over e.g. television.

Again, environment brightness, AFAIK, is way less important than the distance at which you are looking. Hence, looking at the TV is better than at your phone. And I suspect both are better than reading a paper book.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34142457/

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by nsonha on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:57AM (#31738685)
No that's not it at all. It's amazing how people in this thread act like this is a new frontier in health care or something, thinking that genetics and exposure to light are the causes.

It has been determined very conclusively that myopia is caused by spending too much time looking at close objects. That was in my highschool textbook like 20 years ago.

Yes kids should spend more time outside but it has nothing to do with bright environment.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by causality0 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @12:14AM (#31734674)
But is it the intensity and spectrum of the light or the fact that being outdoors means your eyes are looking at far more distant objects?
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by lmm on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @12:26AM (#31734745)
It's purely the brightness. If you're in ambient bright light you don't develop myopia even if you're looking at nearby objects the whole time (e.g. reading books or a phone), if you're in a dim environment you still (are at statistically elevated risk to) develop it even if you're looking at distant objects. This is something they've had to keep doing bigger and bigger studies on because everyone who hears about it has the same kind of thoughts as you did.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by Gentil on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @02:24AM (#31735385)
OK. A dumb question. So I've been using dim screen brightness to my computer monitor every since I started using glasses. Should I be increasing screen brightness?

Cos I am very serious about having proper lighting on the room I work in. But always thought the screen should be dimmer than the room for some reason.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by lmm on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @02:36AM (#31735457)
The short answer is I have no idea. As a matter of personal speculation, I doubt screen brightness makes much difference compared to the huge range that ambient light level can have (about four orders of magnitude IIRC). Most screens look bright at night even on their dimmest setting, and are too dim to read in sunlight even on their brightest setting.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by Gentil on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @02:44AM (#31735513)
Interesting. Mine has been the least possible brightness with which I can read. Just turned it up a notch to match the room brightness. Let me experiment with it for some days.

Thanks for taking the time to share your POV.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by andromeduck on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @04:06AM (#31736064)
Wouldn't it be brighter settings = less stressom focusing muscles because smaller pupil = higher depth of field.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by rajeshp1986 on Monday June 13, 2022 @09:57PM (#31733973)
I can say this anecdotally based on my observations of my elders in my village in India while growing up. They used to avoid getting glasses and eventually their eyesight became worse. I don't think the hypothesis that wearing glasses is causing near sightedness epidemic.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by epgui on Monday June 13, 2022 @08:03PM (#31733222)
Well, the optometrists I know seem to think this explanation doesn't make sense.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by kafkaesque on Monday June 13, 2022 @08:15PM (#31733301)
Optometrists are not medical doctors. It's better to consult ophthalmologists (plural) on this. They are better educated and the ones that actually do all the hands-on work on your eyes
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by the_d3f4ult on Monday June 13, 2022 @10:41PM (#31734181)
I'm an ophthalmologist. Optometrist are very well educated and very competent. They tend to be better at things optics related like refractions, contact lens fitting, etc. and are perfectly capable of managing bread-and-butter medical ophthalmic issues.

Ophthalmologists tend to be better at complex medical management, especially when there are systemic manifestations and own anything requiring surgical intervention.

Optometrists do a 4-year doctorate. Ophthalmologists do a 4-year MD that includes the full spectrum of medical training (gen surg, ob-gyn, neurology, etc.) and then a 1 + 3 residency that includes 1 year of general medicine or surgery and 3 years of medical and surgical ophthalmology.

There are, of course, optometrists who are very good at medical management and ophthalmologists that are very good at refractive issues (e.g. refractive surgeons). We mostly work cooperatively although things occasionally get spicy. I I enjoy working with and learning from my optometrist colleagues. I go to an optometrist friend when I need a refraction and an ophthalmologist friend for my annual.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by epgui on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @01:32AM (#31735094)
PS.: ophtalmology residency candidates compete for an absurdly small number of seats in Canada/US, so an ophtalmologist’s opinion on optometrists should be weighed relatively heavily (they’re very smart folks). Commenter is being very humble.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by User23 on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @08:32PM (#31761202)
Imagine doing surgery on a pile of wet tissue paper is how I’ve heard retinal surgery described. I’m no expert, but I’d bet it’s even more challenging than most brain surgeries.
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by epgui on Monday June 13, 2022 @09:05PM (#31733634)
I know that. But technically, optometrists have a "professional doctorate" in optometry ("doctor of optometry" or OD), just like doctors have a "professional doctorate" in medicine ("doctor in medicine" or MD). Neither MDs nor ODs are traditional doctors, which is what you would traditionally call someone with a PhD, and not someone who takes care of your health.

I just don't happen to know any ophtalmologists, or anyone with a PhD who specializes in this, and in any case a good optometrist has overlapping expertise and concerns with ophtalmology and current research. Take it for what it's worth, no more, no less.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by User23 on Monday June 13, 2022 @08:12PM (#31733277)
Why is that? Also what do you mean “seem to?” They do or they don’t, right? Have they not actually told you what they think?
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by epgui on Monday June 13, 2022 @09:03PM (#31733624)
I'm modulating my language simply because I don't have a firm grasp on expert consensus, I only have a handful of optometrist friends, and I usually like to defer to consensus.

I'm not sure why you'd think they wouldn't be honest with me: you should assume good faith.

Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by User23 on Monday June 13, 2022 @09:39PM (#31733859)
I am assuming good faith. I wouldn’t ask you why they believe that if I didn’t. Incidentally you didn’t answer my question: “why is that?”
Re:In Asia, short-sightedness is becoming ubiquitous by epgui on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @01:28AM (#31735072)
I thought I did answer it with my first paragraph, but if that still seems odd to you we can probably chalk it up to English as a second language or to a misunderstanding.