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Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by throw93232 on Friday June 10, 2022 @06:24AM (#31692160)
Turkey has a point though, relevant treaty says those islands should be demilitarised. If Greece is not happy about that, it should renegotiate and sign new treaty.

Dismissing someone greavances as "warmongering" will just escalate war.

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by planetis on Friday June 10, 2022 @07:12AM (#31692456)
Turkish EFES 2022 military exercise concluded just a day ago and it's scenario was landing on an enemy island. The pesident demanded that Greece demilitarize its islands in the eastern Aegean, otherwise face disaster. If that's not a clear military threat then what could it be?

Source: https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/1186488/erdogan-issues-thr...

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by mrunseen on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:06AM (#31692887)
Aegean sea has seen a lot of military exercises with both Greece and Turkey, I remember the Medusa-10 exercise with Greece, France, Egypt and UAE (and yeah, these are the sides which clash against Turkey-backed official government in Libya) NATO Allied Land Command (in Izmir) tweeted the exercise with hashtags: #WEARENATO and #StrongerTogether. I would normally say such a weird timeline we live in but it has been like this for decades.
Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by jomjomv on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:39AM (#31693221)
Yes, military exercises happen all the time but the scenarios of the exercises are not always the same and they are not irrelevant.
Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by stavros on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:35AM (#31693174)
You mean the treaty between Greece and Italy? I don't understand why Turkey has a right to complain about a treaty between two unrelated countries.

If Italy wants to complain about Greece violating the treaty, by all means, but why should Turkey, as a non-signatory?

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by jomjomv on Friday June 10, 2022 @06:59AM (#31692377)
Afaik "militarization" here refers to permanent Naval bases and such in which case, no, Turkey doesn't have a point at all.
Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by stavros on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:38AM (#31693201)
This is the Lausanne treaty (which Turkey is a signatory of, and which stipulates that Greece shouldn't build naval bases on islands, which it hasn't).

There's also a treaty between Greece and Italy, which stipulates that there will be no army on some islands, the violation of which Italy apparently has no problem with. I don't understand by what right an unrelated third party complains about it, it seems to me about as relevant as Greece complaining about a treaty between Colombia and Brazil.

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by planetis on Friday June 10, 2022 @06:53AM (#31692330)
There is no negotiating to be done over one's sovereign rights. Once again going too far over any logic can explain but let me be clear about it. Every country has the right to defend its territory, that's article 2 paragraph 4 of the UN charter. The Paris Peace treaty does not concern Turkey, as Turkey did not sign it. Turkey remained neutral in WW2, declaring war against Germany in late February 1945, hence the title of "the evasive neutral", showing it's opportunism. Turkey's president has no legal basis to ask for the demilitarization of Greek islands. It is the Greek islands' strong army presence that deter him from any thought of military operations against them. Lastly every island over 3 nautical miles distance over the coast of Anatolia, according to the treaty of Lausanne belongs to Greece.
Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by throw93232 on Friday June 10, 2022 @07:36AM (#31692644)
..and Turky will start again shipping refugees from its "sovereign" territory. This clawn show is very expensive for both sides. Make a deal!
Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by planetis on Friday June 10, 2022 @07:55AM (#31692788)
In my opinion, it will stay as such, no side can afford the loss of income from tourism. It is an attempt to turn a worsening situation into an opportunity. Erdogan a defunct leader, might face jail time in case he looses the elections, thus he will do everything he can to cling to power. The unknown is how desperate he is and how far he's willing to go.
Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by ClumsyPilot on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:54AM (#31693395)
It's shameful that refugees are treated like this by both parties.

Soon climate crisis will produce anywhere between 100 million to a billion refugees. Will countries that polluted most take the most?

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by ClumsyPilot on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:48AM (#31693325)
> "hence the title of "the evasive neutral", showing it's opportunism."

Imagine you are in charge of a struggling nation, somewhat behind technologically, close to Germany and Italy, during the most destructive war in history.

In that situation, would you be eager to declare war on the axis powers, and condemn your people to suffering?

Even US wasn't keen to get involved untill war came to them - and they had technological parity and protection of the oceans..

You also have to realise that To non-europeans, for example folks in China, Nazi germany didn't look like 'absolute evil', it looked like a yet another war between colonial powers. They had fresh memory of atrocities commited by colonial powers which, to them, were not that different from Nazis's ones.

To them, Europe only cared about europe - when empire of Japan was doing genocide in China, noone cared.

The point is not to agree or disagree with this worldview, but you have to realise that world events don't look the same from dofferent corners.

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by BbzzbB on Friday June 10, 2022 @10:15AM (#31694520)
>Europe only cared about Europe

Not every part of Europe, even that is selective. Atrocities happened in ex-Yugoslavia right under it's nose and inaction, less than 30 years ago.

Who knows if anything would've been done for Ukraine either if it wasn't for their president and people's heroic defense in the first days.

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by watwut on Friday June 10, 2022 @10:13AM (#31694510)
China itself is colonial power - to these days.

> You also have to realise that To non-europeans, for example folks in China, Nazi germany didn't look like 'absolute evil', it looked like a yet another war between colonial powers.

China land was literally occupied by Japanies who fought on the German side and joined the allies. China fought in that war and lost quite a lot of people in that war.

Ad Turkey: It is one thing to stay aside of genocide far away, it is another thing to demand credit for fighting genocide when it is clear who won.

> The point is not to agree or disagree with this worldview, but you have to realise that world events don't look the same from dofferent corners.

Those other corners don't get to lie about places away from them or history while ranking up own aggression.

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by ClumsyPilot on Friday June 10, 2022 @06:12PM (#31699951)
> Those other corners don't get to lie about places away from them or history while ranking up own aggression.

This is pot / kettle black. It's not like none of this happens over here.

If you open a typical British or US history textbook, it omits or glances over most of the atrocious and dark parts of it's history.

As a result most population is unaware of their scale, or sometimes unaware of them at all. That's how you get false narratives in politics, usually nationalist ones. In my experience a typical brexit supporting person has never heard of half the stuff that was going on in the colonies.

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by watwut on Sunday June 12, 2022 @03:24PM (#31717435)
Sure and that is bad too and perfectly fine to point out in that context.

That does not mean it is suddenly honorable when Turkey do it right now. Or that we have to accept similar behavior from everyone else without pointing it out.

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by hrgiger on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:32AM (#31693144)
Heya Turkish guy here, some points you mention I agree (our secularism, administration), but I found your lobbying approach for cheering for war and weapons quite disturbing, I love Greek people, we have many commons and differences, when I share my projects or work publicly I always think there is many otherside think like me, peaceful minds concentrated on development rather than destruction. Elections are due we will show our response to that administration as well. Hope we will have better discussions then.
Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by planetis on Friday June 10, 2022 @09:40AM (#31694029)
(Original message re-posted to prove there is no cheering for war from my side, that's false information): Contrast this to the present day, where Turkish president, due to the worsening economy and the June 2023 elections and the successful diplomatic trip of his Greek counterpart to the US, has went on a sickening game of war threats on a daily basis. A map of the chronic Turkish revisionism has been released by the Greek foreign ministry in an attempt to counter his warmongering with logical arguments. NATO should see who is tripping the alliance, acting on the benefit of Russia ...and finally accept that Turkey has become the new Iran, it's views no longer aligns with the West. A strong army is a must, and after a decade of economic crisis, Greece has a lot of catching up to do.

[1]: https://twitter.com/GreeceMFA/status/1534867984476516354

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by nspattak on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:46AM (#31693309)
Elections are coming in Greece as well.

Politicians on either side of the aegean have failed their people misserably and are apparently turning to nationalism/hatred for political gain.

I wish this is understood by both countries (yet I do not expect it...)

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by planetis on Friday June 10, 2022 @09:16AM (#31693678)
> I wish this is understood by both countries (yet I do not expect it...)

In the Greek side there hasn't been a single populist "call to arms" by any political party. Greece is not the one that would start an incident, since it's against it's interests and it's advised to remain calm by the media. Recently the Greek PM responded to Erdogan's previous petty statements [1] with just "we are neighbours, we always need to talk, and we always want to keep channels of communication open". Overall their responses in the media are mild and far from nationalistic.

[1]: https://www.reuters.com/world/turkeys-erdogan-says-greek-pm-... [2]: https://www.amna.gr/en/article/649386/PM-Mitsotakis-If-Erdog...

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by planetis on Friday June 10, 2022 @09:20AM (#31693754)
The previous night's outrageous addressing to the Greek people from Erdogan in Greek, where he threatened for a disaster like the burning of Smyrna a century ago.

[1]: https://twitter.com/RTErdogan/status/1534954757713960962

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by watwut on Friday June 10, 2022 @10:09AM (#31694464)
It does not seem like symmetrical both sides situation to me to be honest.
Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by plesiv on Friday June 10, 2022 @06:33AM (#31692212)
Since when are political comments like this one welcome on HN. I tend to share some of your views, but that's unimportant. HN can't be allowed to become a cesspool that the rest of the Web is.
Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by atoav on Friday June 10, 2022 @07:38AM (#31692661)
Is there such a thing as an apolitical post?

I don't think the expression of a political perception is a thing that is problematic. What is problematic is when it becomes polemic. Anybody who knows the region an has been in Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria, Macedonia knows that there is a lot of conflict potential in that region which hardcore nationalists on all sides of geographic and language borders. All while they share a lot of common culture in terms of food, music (although every side claims they have been the ones inventing it).

My own perception as someone who has been in the region is that Turkish nationalism is indeed stronger and more visible than e.g. Greek or Bulgarian nationalism, but maybe I just have not been to the right regions in my 20+ trips to Greece.

For that matter I like Turkey as well. They have incredible subcultures, Istanbul is a great city, or the beautiful lake Adana with it's kind people.

I myself come from a region with strong tendecies of border disputes (Austrian-Slowenian-Italian border) and I am truly aware of how impossible and stupid it can be to draw a political border into an area where you have two or more minorities on each sides, because in daily lives and in lived culture those people are closer to each other than to the "great" nations that have an interest in marking these borders boldly.

Saying nothing in face of conflict can be just as political as saying something.

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by smcl on Friday June 10, 2022 @07:31AM (#31692613)
To add - I don't think the issue is that something political is being discussed on HN. We talk politics all the time here, and even heated comments don't always get flagged or downvoted.

The issue here is that this is a fairly benign and interesting story, but this person has used it as an opportunity to air a grievance on something which, to be honest, doesn't seem related other than occurring in roughly the same area. Tangents are fine IMO if they're "if you liked that story, check this...", but if they're just trying to shoe-horn in a rant about some provocative issue that could be crossing the line

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by planetis on Friday June 10, 2022 @07:39AM (#31692669)
The issue at hand is both relevant to the articles meaning and content but it is also identical to the mentioned geographic location. In ancient Greece people refusing to talk about politics where called idiots, meaning a person not partaking in public affairs.
Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by smcl on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:17AM (#31693007)
Ah come on, you have to admit that Erdogan's recent posturing has nothing to do with an article about a manual on ancient counter-siege tactics.

And it's a good thing I explicitly said political talk was fine, otherwise someone might think you were calling me an "idiot", right? :D

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by planetis on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:29AM (#31693107)
Of course my friend, no disrespect was meant towards you, that's why I was explicit for the meaning of the word. It's fascinating that some ancient Greek words where borrowed to English with a completely different meaning like empathy which is a negative emotion, similar to envy.
Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by causi on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:06AM (#31692886)
We talk politics all the time here, and even heated comments don't always get flagged or downvoted.

Heated comments aren't flagged and downvoted, but unpopular ones are. HN just has a very unique profile of what it considers unpopular opinions that aren't the same as American political issues. There are plenty of downvote squads who will mass-flag submissions they don't like. The comments on such submissions will often be even-headed discussions with a wide range of views represented, all the while the sub is going from flagged to vouched over and over.

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by smcl on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:22AM (#31693044)
You're right that things can get downvoted and flagged according to personal tastes (mention a figure like Marx or Tito without explicitly condemning them and watch the downvotes roll in for an idea of what the prevailing personal tastes here are) but my point is that overall politics is not at all off the table here, even when it's not totally civil.
Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by ClumsyPilot on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:59AM (#31693443)
Which is a shame because there is no real understanding of Marx as an economist as a scholar.

It's jusy mob mentality of Marz=Communism=(evil or usefull idiot)

Very few people know that Marx himself was puzzled as to why his book became so popular in Russia, and how little his writing has in common with ideology thay followed

Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by smcl on Friday June 10, 2022 @10:07AM (#31694423)
Yep it's a bit silly and it comes from some a place of ignorance. To be honest I'm not in danger of being booted off the site any time soon, so a couple of downvotes here and there aren't going to cause too much harm :)
Re:No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient ... by dendriti on Friday June 10, 2022 @06:19AM (#31692121)
It is deeply amusing to see a NATO state and occupier of Afghanistan wax poetically about the rule of law and territorial integrity.

The Greek MFA makes some good points about the threat of Turkish incursions, but I wish they'd be less hypocritical about it.