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Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by arcticbull on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:21PM (#31676557)
> Any instance in history where you can find a similar trend, it tends to be at the decline stage of civilizations / empires.

You know what? I'm just not that worried that accepting humans are kind of messy and don't fit into boxes is going to lead to the decline of our civilization.

Most complex genetic traits are multimodal, gender is no exception.

Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by weakfish on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @10:06PM (#31676843)
I really like your response. Just wanted to tell you.
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Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by mmcconnell1618 on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:35PM (#31676660)
Pseudohermaphrodism exists in humans (people born with multiple sets of genitals). That doesn't fit into your claim of only bimodal and this is just the external presentation of gender. I would encourage you to explore the topic more. It's not as simple as boy/girl only. https://science.jrank.org/pages/3310/Hermaphrodite-Hermaphro...
Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by arcticbull on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:26PM (#31676591)
Bimodal is a case of multimodal where n=2.

And you're going to have to explain why it's a sign of a decline.

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Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by astrange on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:47PM (#31676737)
Were the Romans thinking it was only gay if you were on the receiving end a sign of cultural strength or decline?

Of course, even though they're one of the more famous cultures to have "declined", that's only if you artificially don't consider Byzantine Rome, and there's plenty of people living in Rome to this day.

Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by arcticbull on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:46PM (#31676731)
Bimodal is not binary. Obviously there are two ‘modes’ - ie peaks in the probability distribution function, male and female, but there’s a lot of overlap in between. The term ‘multimodal’ doesn’t mean ‘bimodal with overlap’ lol, it means that there are multiple distinct peaks in the probability distribution function.

Look up a bimodal distribution for clarification.

Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by signal11 on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:46PM (#31676725)
> If you go to any other culture on the globe and talk about non-binary gender, you will either be met with confusion, or just straight up mockery.

India’s not an affluent country, and irrespective of their legal status (Google it, it may surprise you), nonbinary people have a distinctive identity and place in society.

This is not to say that how affluent western countries approach trans rights is better or worse, it just means trans people do have a place in other cultures I’m familiar with. Perhaps others can share examples from other cultures.

> Any instance in history where you can find a similar trend, it tends to be at the decline stage of civilizations / empires.

Elizabethan England wasn’t very affluent or educated compared to today, but even a cursory glance at their literature shows that authors and audiences understood what we’d call intersex or nonbinary identity today (I frequently mix up the terminology.) I don’t think their idea of rights was quite as legalistically driven as modern Western society, but I don’t think being nonbinary was a death sentence either.

Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by thomasguide on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:30PM (#31676619)
This comment does not show a lot of curiosity - even a quick read of the Wikipedia article for gender identity refutes this argument. Gender has been differentially and socially constructed throughout human history.[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity?wprov=sfti1

Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by ceejayoz on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @10:01PM (#31676811)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender is also a good read for historical examples; hints as far back as ancient Mesopotamia.
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Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by anon2020dot00 on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:48PM (#31676745)
A downvote is just one person and so don't over-generalize it to the entire site.
Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by taotau on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:57PM (#31676788)
In the context of interface/product design, gender identity is just another data point for marketing purposes. I cant think of many products that are genuinely gender specific.

When data collection and manufacturing supply chains were more crude, it was easier to make blue and pink gi joes and barbies.

Now we have the abilitiy to collect more nuanced data about peoples preferences and efficiently service the long tail, it makes sense to let customers define their likes on a spectrum rather than as binary choices.

I dont see why you would feel so strongly about restricting how people choose to define themselves.

Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by wonderbore on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:16PM (#31676535)
> spectrum

Does this mean we’ll soon get a range picker when we sign up for iCloud?

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Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by arcticbull on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:26PM (#31676587)
You know bisexual isn't the same thing as a hermaphrodite right?
Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by ASalazarMX on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:34PM (#31676651)
We're talking about choice of gender, not sex. Sexes are male and female, and to be fair, hermaphrodite should be a third option. Gender can be any random combination of man and woman.

People confounding sex and gender has caused a great deal of rhetoric. You can't choose your sex, that's in your DNA, but you can choose your gender.

Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by fenter on Thursday June 09, 2022 @08:22AM (#31680284)
That is just one definition of gender. There's confusion over its usage because it has a number of different and conflicting meanings.

In her book Material Girls, which thoroughly and thoughtfully explores this topic, Kathleen Stock describes four senses of the word:

> GENDER1: A polite-sounding word for the division between men and women, understood as a traditional alternative word for biological sex / the division between biological males and females.

> GENDER2: A word for social stereotypes, expectations and norms of 'masculinity' and 'femininity', originally directed towards biological males and females respectively. These can and do differ from culture to culture, though there are many overlaps too.

> GENDER3: A word for the division between men and women, understood, by definition, as a division between two sets of people: those who have the social role of masculinity projected onto them, and those who have the social role of femininity projected onto them.

> GENDER4: A shortened version of the term 'gender identity'. [A] common idea is that it is the 'private experience of gender role' - roughly, whether you relate to yourself psychologically as a boy or man, girl or women, or neither, in a way that has nothing directly to do with your sex.

Up until recently, the colloquial sense was GENDER1. Now this is shifting partly towards GENDER4, amongst some but certainly not all English speakers.

When you refer to people "confounding sex and gender", I expect you're simply observing the conflict between different people understanding the term as GENDER1 or GENDER4.

Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by stephenr on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:36PM (#31676664)
And "bisexual" is neither a gender nor a sex.
Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by ASalazarMX on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:48PM (#31676744)
go on.
Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by weakfish on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @10:08PM (#31676862)
Bisexual is sexuality, not gender. Since you asked. It’s not super complicated and they’re completely different things. A bisexual person likes both men and women. That has nothing to do with gender of the person who is bisexual.
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Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by weakfish on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @10:06PM (#31676850)
How is trans people existing political?
Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by sneak on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:21PM (#31677251)
Gender is a "social construct", such things exist as an emergent phenomenon of society, society does not uniformly and unanimously agree on all of the constructs or aspects thereof, therefore the existence or non-existence of certain aspects, or asserting same to others (such as via the publication of software, or changes to same), is inherently a social and political act.

There are people who think that trans people are simply non-trans people with psychological illness, for example. Regardless of whether or not that is true or false, it is a point of fact that people with those beliefs definitely exist, and that they reject such social constructs as non-ill trans people existing, so asserting that they do (which is what publishing an OS with such emoji in it implicitly does) is a political act (in conflict with the beliefs of those people).

If everyone agreed on all social constructs and narratives, then nothing would be "political". Given that no two people share precisely the same mind and context and social constructs, every action that involves other people or society in some way is political.

Abstractions are leaky.

Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by fenter on Thursday June 09, 2022 @08:00AM (#31680108)
It's also political because it has specific implications regarding sex-based rights, free versus compelled speech, issues of medical consent - all of which were existing and contentious political issues already.

And also because opposing political groups are using it as a dividing line. Though interestingly, left-wing radical feminists have been consistently the most critical, which is at odds with most others who identify as left-wing politically.

Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by aaaaaaaaata on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:52PM (#31676762)
What you linked is the opposite of what you said.
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Re:New Human Interface Guidelines by lolinder on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @10:38PM (#31677050)
The Unicode Consortium named it "pregnant man". That's the official part.

"Sometimes used in jest" is pretty clearly introducing a usage that is unofficial.