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Re:Sunsetting Atom by ClawsOnPaws on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @04:16PM (#31673375)
Hey,

Please don't forget about accessibility. Getting this right from day 1 will make your life a lot easier in the long run. If I remember correctly, I was never able to use Atom with a screen reader. Hearing custom UI already makes me nervous and I'm pretty sure I won't be able to use Zed with a screen reader either.

Blind developers exist. Please don't forget about us. It's one of the few areas where we can actually make a meaningful difference together with our peers on an equal playing field.

Re:Sunsetting Atom by dao- on Thursday June 09, 2022 @04:49AM (#31678991)
Especially for a _collaborative_ editor, a11y seems like a must. Everyone can pick their own personal editor, but you don't want to shut out your (potential) peers from (potential) collaboration. Without accessibility, such an editor likely wouldn't stand a chance at Mozilla where I work; I certainly would lobby against it.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by serial_dev on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @04:56PM (#31674010)
How do other editors/IDEs perform in terms of accessibility? What are your favorites?
Re:Sunsetting Atom by ClawsOnPaws on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @05:37PM (#31674627)
My favorite is VS Code by far. I use it daily. They recently also added a bunch of sound cues to help figure out if code is folded or a line contains an error. It's pretty great. Auto completion reads well, the parameter hints read, even the built-in terminal works. So overall I'm really happy with it.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by kfrzcode on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @06:21PM (#31675149)
Microsoft is particularly good with regard to a11y and devtooling
Re:Sunsetting Atom by behnamoh on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @07:01PM (#31675557)
speaking of VSCODE, i wonder if MS acquiring github has anything to do with sunsetting atom.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by PoignardAzur on Thursday June 09, 2022 @05:24AM (#31679200)
It probably played a pretty big role. Everything Atom could do, VsCode could do better. At some point it didn't make sense to put man-hours into two different editors with the exact same technology stack.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by intern4tional on Thursday June 09, 2022 @12:56AM (#31677694)
Not likely, GitHub is a separate business and makes their own decisions.

MS also competes with GitHub also; Azure Repos are a thing, as is Azure DevOps and those are just two examples. MS has plenty of products that compete with each other.

In some spaces this is a good strategy as you will capture more market share with two products than you will with one and you can avoid to an extent monopoly claims.

GitHub Codespaces is what killed Atom and while MS was probably involved in the decision to develop Codespaces, the decision to sunset Atom likely wasn't explicitly made at that time; its simply a side affect as other things have eclipsed Atom.

Re:Sunsetting Atom by rezoneight on Saturday June 11, 2022 @03:29PM (#31707466)
Microsoft has moved essentially the whole development team for Azure DevOps to GitHub. GitHub is what they consider the future.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by exysle on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @05:47PM (#31674752)
Would you mind commenting on XCode? I heard that Apple really cares about accessibility.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by ClawsOnPaws on Thursday June 09, 2022 @05:18AM (#31679170)
I don't have much experience with XCode, however the few things I did do seemed accessible. As accessible as XCode can be - I personally find a lot of the interface a bit confusing. Super long lists, nested options, but I assume those aren't things that are specifically confusing to people using assistive tech and I'm sure I'd be able to find my way around it well if I used it more. Mac seems to be a lot more consistent with their accessibility story than others, and we constantly get new features from them. With the new MacOS for example we got a VoiceOver feature that tells us when we have formatting problems in text, and we can finally get indentation announced (something which we had to do using custom scripting before). Not to mention all the cool things that involve some form of (live) image recognition, like telling us where people are, where doors are, etc etc.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by spartanatreyu on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @08:15PM (#31676156)
The design of the existing and previous mac mice and the new System Settings app in MacOS Ventura tell a different story.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by dewey on Thursday June 09, 2022 @04:27AM (#31678847)
> the new System Settings app in MacOS Ventura

Maybe it's just me but I'd not judge things like that on the first non-public beta.

Re:Sunsetting Atom by unethical_ban on Thursday June 09, 2022 @03:29AM (#31678496)
I cannot comprehend being blind and developing for my existence. I think I would die, or else become a lecturer .
Re:Sunsetting Atom by d1sxeyes on Thursday June 09, 2022 @04:16AM (#31678786)
What an exceptionally unhelpful comment.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by unethical_ban on Thursday June 09, 2022 @11:27AM (#31682434)
It was. I was in a particularly moody state and my filter was gone. It was meant in a way to be sympathetic to the challenges of that situation but is phrased badly. I'd delete it but I can't.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by d1sxeyes on Friday June 10, 2022 @06:07AM (#31692061)
These things happen. Props for acknowledging.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by dharmab on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @05:27PM (#31674480)
Visual Studio is quite good: https://youtu.be/94swlF55tVc
Re:Sunsetting Atom by giancarlostoro on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @06:27PM (#31675210)
I've only ever heard good things about Visual Studio in this area, not sure if other IDEs are comparable. I do know Eclipse has a specialized build for this purpose as well. I wonder if XCode is also decent in this regard. I think Notepad++ might be only other one from memory that I know of.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by mongol on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @06:43PM (#31675375)
Unrelated question: how does accessibility work on smartphones? Do you use something like a physical keyboard to interact with GUI elements in apps?
Re:Sunsetting Atom by mutagen on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @06:56PM (#31675497)
I came across this video from 2020 that demonstrates a couple of ways it works on iOS:

https://twitter.com/Kristy_Viers/status/1287189581926981634

You can turn on the various accessibility features and try them yourselves. While I was already aware of the 'voiceover' features, I was blown away by the braille keyboard and how quickly she could type with it.

Blind people use TTS set at ridiculous speeds that make my 1.5x podcast playback seem glacial. Even back in the late 80s I remember a blind classmate who had a portable electronic typewriter thing that read her entries back to her at rapid speed.

Re:Sunsetting Atom by spartanatreyu on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @08:19PM (#31676186)
I commonly watch dev talks and walkthroughs on youtube at greater than 2x speed because the talkers make an effort to talk slowly for non native English speakers.

Just pop open the console with F12, enter the following and hit enter:

$('video').playbackRate = 2.5

Change `2.5` to whatever number you wish.

Press up in the console to bring back your last command faster with the cursor at the end so you just delete the number, type a new number and hit enter.

Re:Sunsetting Atom by bmn__ on Thursday June 09, 2022 @01:57AM (#31677996)
Alternatively, <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/enhancer-for-youtub...> offers a much more convenient UI for playback speed.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by velut on Saturday June 11, 2022 @09:37AM (#31704327)
I made a website that uses bookmarklets just for that.

https://www.videospeedup.com/

Re:Sunsetting Atom by hkh515 on Thursday June 09, 2022 @03:27AM (#31678482)
In the context of blind users: I wonder if it's common to have the display turned off, while still receiving touch input, I wonder how much it would improve the battery life.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by jeffy90 on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @06:58PM (#31675517)
smartphones come packaged with a screen reader. The screen reader announces what is present on the screen
Re:Sunsetting Atom by polote on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @06:31PM (#31675266)
It is normal to advocate for your needs but asking for it to be included from day 1 is weird. The same way you don't start a saas app with localization from day one.

I'm not blind so for sure I won't really care about accessibility but honest question why not use an ide developed for blind people instead of using the same as non blind people?

Re:Sunsetting Atom by hx2a on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @06:43PM (#31675367)
Please learn more about the needs of blind people before writing something like this.

Adding accessibility for screen readers is much more difficult to add later in the project lifecycle. Thinking about those design considerations early makes a big difference in how accessible it will later. If developers don't think about these things early, most likely the product will never be fully accessible, ever. Blind people have seen this played out before with other software products and know where this path leads.

(I'm not blind but have worked with blind developers. I'm not an expert in accessibility but I know enough to know how important it is to listen to accessibility needs)

Re:Sunsetting Atom by __jem on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @06:36PM (#31675301)
This comment is honestly shocking to me. It’s not “weird” for people with different needs to ask to be included in the software we build. Accessibility is a baseline for any product in 2022 and needs to be included from the start otherwise it inevitably won’t work when it’s strapped on later.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by ziml77 on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @06:40PM (#31675337)
I also find it weird. I’m not disabled but I think designing for accessibility is important. It’s hard to tack on later and have it work well
Re:Sunsetting Atom by dark-star on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @07:01PM (#31675555)
Actually it's pretty good development practice to start an SaaS app with localization from day one. Why wouldn't you? The world doesn't revolve around English speakers (there are more non-English speakers than there are English speakers, at least what their first language is concerned), the same as it doesn't revolve around people with 100% vision.

You start an editor with extensibility from day one, as well as theming from day one, as well as multi-platform from day one, etc.

Why should it be different for Localization or Accessibility?

Re:Sunsetting Atom by SamoyedFurFluff on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @07:02PM (#31675560)
Please consider that implementing accessibility during the design phase is infinitely easier than post implementation. Additionally, accessibility benefits everyone and we should always be advocating for it regardless.

Imagine if you can code screenless. Headaches in response to light? Not a problem. Avoiding screens at night to wind down for sleep? Solved. Eyesight deteriorating (a totally normal thing that comes with age)? No new tech or ecosystem to need to adapt to, everything is already there.

Re:Sunsetting Atom by ClawsOnPaws on Thursday June 09, 2022 @05:14AM (#31679145)
> The same way you don't start a saas app with localization from day one. Believe it or not, my native language isn't English, so this doesn't make sense to me. > I'm not blind so for sure I won't really care about accessibility You should. You're not blind yet. You're not deaf yet. You don't have motor control problems yet. It does not take much to get there. One small accident and your life is changed forever. It's terrifying. > why not use an ide developed for blind people instead of using the same as non blind people? Because not only do those not exist, but that seems just a bit silly to me. Most operating systems provide pretty good means to make apps accessible. They usually have API's that, if implemented, will make your app work with whatever assistive tech you may use on that platform. Most apps work on Mac, most apps work on Windows. Linux is sadly another story, but even there we can at least edit text. What about tutorials? Courses? If we can't use the same software, should we also not be able to do any of them? Should we be locked out of great innovation because we need special software that nobody wants to update? Or worse, locked to one specific platform?

I believe I've said this before, but as sad as it is, every time I hear "Custom UI" I immediately think "Oh great, this won't work". In fact, I'm much more likely to give something a go if it's developed using web technologies. While not perfect, at least I know that there's a chance that it might work. It shouldn't be like that.

Re:Sunsetting Atom by girvo on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @06:43PM (#31675360)
It is not weird at all, and claiming that asking for accessibility to be considered is weird is frankly rude.

Approaches like yours are why people who are differently abled feel left out and like second class citizens a lot of the time.

Re:Sunsetting Atom by lenkite on Thursday June 09, 2022 @04:20AM (#31678805)
I have learnt from VERY painful experience that you cannot "bolt on" accessibility later (not without very painful refactoring and massive tech debt). It needs to be a core feature considered in the base design and a task added for every feature added on top.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by Gentil on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:56PM (#31676781)
OK you want motive. If you do accessibility with priority, you will get a whole new set of users who are always overlooked. A less competitive way to get easy money or user base depending on your product's model. ;)

I recently had a scare with my eyes. Freaked me out. I started looking at my developer tools completely differently. You are not out of the woods buddy. Anything can happen tomorrow. :)

Re:Sunsetting Atom by skinnymuch on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @07:20PM (#31675729)
People can and do care about accessibility while not being blind. Being considerate should be a characteristic we all have.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by uxcolumbo on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @06:48PM (#31675416)
Wow… really? Accessibility is not just for blind users.

It’s also for users with poor eyesight, colour blind folks or folks with motor impairment.

It can happen to any of us and then you’d be glad that developers are taking accessibility standards seriously.

Re:Sunsetting Atom by HelloNurse on Thursday June 09, 2022 @06:48AM (#31679658)
Wouldn't you start a car business with seatbelts and airbags from day one?
Re:Sunsetting Atom by scombridae on Thursday June 09, 2022 @06:58AM (#31679707)
I would. I'd also refuse selling to blind persons.
Re:Sunsetting Atom by LoveMortuus on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @06:41PM (#31675347)
I'm guessing that by "included day 1" they meant that if you do it this way it's much easier then having the product designed and then re-engeneering it to support accessibility later.