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Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by baybal2 on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @10:42AM (#31655060)
This will not do much with Taiwan being a single source for semiconductor manufacturing supplies.

Much of critical blockers for chemicals, consumables, materials will still be in Taiwan just because the semi industry is that huge there.

All 300mm fabs working outside of Taiwan are just few shipments of consumables away from stalling all the time.

When Russia attacks Ukraine, the 3rd world is fucked.

When China attacks Taiwan, the 1st world is fucked.

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by _fat_santa on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @11:43AM (#31656000)
> When China attacks Taiwan, the 1st world is fucked.

China would be shooting themselves in the foot by invading, because it would equally fuck them. I've read in may places that as soon as China invades, Taiwan will blow up all the fabs and supporting supply lines. So even if China takes control of Taiwan, the semiconductor industry will be a smoldering pile of nothingness.

This article[1] does a great job in describing why this would be the case. Even if China prevents the destruction of those fabs and factories, there would still be tons of obstacles.

[1]: https://doxa.substack.com/p/why-a-chinese-invasion-of-taiwan

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by vvladymyrov on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @11:58AM (#31656227)
We just have example of another country shooting itself in the foot and attacking Ukraine despite a wealth of widely known arguments against doing this. Unfortunately logic and common sense sometimes take back sit in politics.
Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by n00bface on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @01:50PM (#31657829)
Especially when it comes to despotic life-long leaders. After 2018, Xi no longer has to worry about the pretense of term limits. We can only hope the state of Russia after the Ukrainian conflict is a convincing enough lesson.

Invading Taiwan...the risks are substantial and the gain is legacy. Hardly a convincing for a nation, but potentially convincing for a man facing mortality.

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by severino on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @05:34PM (#31660360)
> We can only hope the state of Russia after the Ukrainian conflict is a convincing enough lesson

We can also hope that the US refrains from creating another conflict to try to provoke China the same way they have been doing in Ukraine for the last 8 years. This "Pacific NATO" is the next thing. I am very pessimistic because the US is not going to allow China to overtake them in any way, and they have been behaving like that in their entire history.

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by colejohnson66 on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @12:01PM (#31656266)
I've heard the "TSMC self-destruct" story a lot, but I haven't found a source. All I can find are people repeating the claim. Is there a source anywhere?
Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by dirtyid on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @03:14PM (#31658825)
It's been internet meme for few years when TSMC node lead was evident, and recently someone at US Army War College picked up on concept and wrote a paper suggesting TW should blow up their own fabs to deter PRC invasion when PRC had eyes on invading TW before semiconductors even existed. I guess TW media saw this as serious traction and pushed some articles basically saying "leave TSMC alone". The idea is flawed because preserving TSMC is the only barginning chip for TW, especially post war reconstruction. It's the difference between rebuilding from a advanced/developed economy to rebuilding from a agrarian one. Even with chip act and all the expansion on going, TW is projected to hold onto 90% of advanced node production for a while. It's not in TW/US interest to burn this. Nor PRC but direction of profits and reliant industry means it affects west more. Imagine being the TW leadership asking to be evacuated to US for protection after destroying supply chains of US companies worth trillions. Guessing in 5-10 years when PRC has semi sufficient domestic production, even if a few nodes behind, the meme will be PRC will preemptively destroy TSMC to make TW less desirable to protect.
Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by phkahler on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @03:05PM (#31658712)
>> China would be shooting themselves in the foot by invading, because it would equally fuck them. I've read in may places that as soon as China invades, Taiwan will blow up all the fabs and supporting supply lines. So even if China takes control of Taiwan, the semiconductor industry will be a smoldering pile of nothingness.

That sounds incredibly stupid. If China invading is shooting themselves in the foot, then Taiwan blowing up their (worlds most advanced) fabs would be suicide. Nobody ever won a conflict by doing that.

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by vimy on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @11:53AM (#31656146)
I talked to Chinese people about Taiwan. They are very emotional about it (anger and hate). Don’t expect China to act logical.
Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by pphysch on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @12:19PM (#31656577)
Please don't make such generalizations.

The average Chinese person is no more responsible for Chinese foreign policy than the average American is for American foreign policy.

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by vimy on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @12:33PM (#31656811)
The point was that China’s leaders are emotional about it too. They grew up with the same propaganda.
Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by pphysch on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @02:48PM (#31658521)
Beijing's interest in Taiwan is not emotional. It's as realist as it gets.

During the Opium Wars, foreign invaders occupied many of the mainland's ocean ports.

Taiwan, as part of the First Island Chain, represents a critical strategic asset for those wishing to control mainland China.

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by tick_tock_tick on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @01:59PM (#31657956)
What!!! The average American's views absolutely have a huge impact on foreign policy... Why would you assume it's different in China?
Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by lm28469 on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @11:00AM (#31655355)
What makes Taiwan inherently better than somewhere else ? If it's just for historical and/or economical reason I don't see why Europe or the US couldn't build their own chemical plants.

You have to start somewhere, it took us decades to delocalise everything to Asia, it'll take decades to build these industries locally.

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by baybal2 on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @11:14AM (#31655565)
You have just asked why we can't "just move manufacturing out of China:"

There are no individual chemical plants, there are huge chemical complexes owned by many companies with own well guarded know hows. There may be 2-4 suppliers in a row producing some intermediary product used in making of only 1 output.

Just to make the semiconductor grade hyperpure propanol you need ultrapure catalysts, ultrapure sulphuric acid, ultrapure water, and ultrapure input hydrocarbon stock. Ah, forgot, you also needs an ultrapure tare manufacturer, because bottles you ship ultrapure materials are single use.

You need decades just to replicate this. Now you need to move 100+ of such material chains.

> If it's just for historical and/or economical reason

Simple answer, yes! Taiwan has quietly swallowed near an entirety of the wider precision manufacturing industry.

It been consistently swallowing very capital intensive industries producing exportable niche products one after another simply because nobody else been taking such hard, and risky ventures. Yes, their profitability is not high, but their "moat" is gigantic.

Taiwan been an industrial titan for 20+ years, and the US only finds out about it now.

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by wtetzner on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @12:04PM (#31656330)
> You need decades just to replicate this. Now you need to move 100+ of such material chains.

Better get started right away then.

"The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The next best time is today."

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by weregiraffe on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @01:16AM (#31663503)
>"The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The next best time is today."

"The best time to stop quoting stale platitudes is 20 years ago. The next best time is today."

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by mlyle on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @12:42PM (#31656948)
> You need decades just to replicate this. Now you need to move 100+ of such material chains.

I think decades is a stretch. Keep in mind most of these chains sprung up in the last 3 decades organically in Taiwan and China (and many of them are still elsewhere-- e.g. BASF is still a titan.)

If it's a national priority, you can get some production going a lot faster than this.

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by baybal2 on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @02:34PM (#31658356)
> If it's a national priority, you can get some production going a lot faster than this.

Defeating CoVID was too a national priority. Did they manage to build a single new mask manufacturing line?

No, but they actually tried really hard. Dozens of companies were recruited for the effort, and they just gave up after realising that they can't even get a single part in the blowing machine to be made in the US.

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by mlyle on Thursday June 09, 2022 @06:59PM (#31688039)
> Defeating CoVID was too a national priority. Did they manage to build a single new mask manufacturing line?

I don't think this is a fair representation of what happened. US capacity existed and some additional came online, but then largely failed because of overseas product still coming in below their cost. Semiconductors after a shooting war with China would be a different picture: an imminent return to normalcy wouldn't be in everyone's economic calculations.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/business/dealbook/america...

> that they can't even get a single part in the blowing machine to be made in the US.

Not even a single part? Now you're in hyperbole-land.

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by JoachimS on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @11:57AM (#31656198)
Excellent explanation.
Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by dkjaudyeqooe on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @11:08AM (#31655481)
Your argument sounds like one for local investment in fabs. The point is that you develop industry (with subsidies) and the ancillary industries follow and then you (and the rest of the world) are not dependent on a single source.

Of course it's not enough to just pay Intel to open a fab you have to compete successfully with places like Taiwan and have a growing industry, otherwise that won't happen. That's the main risk here.

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by ratww on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @11:17AM (#31655620)
So Europe needs to start making supply factories, too.

With a fab, that's still difficult, but necessary.

Without a fab, however, that would have been deemed impossible and unrealistic.

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by Pxtl on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @11:52AM (#31656120)
Resource extraction and refinement are much lower capital-cost infrastructure than a chip fab. If, God forbid, all the eggs in that one basket get smashed, it's far more feasible for that infrastructure to be developed elsewhere.

It would still suck in the interrim, of course.

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by kken on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @12:55PM (#31657124)
>Much of critical blockers for chemicals, consumables, materials will still be in Taiwan just because the semi industry is that huge there.

You mean like Linde, Air Liquide, Dow, Merck, BASF, Entegris, Shiply, Fujifilm, Wacker and so on?

Those are not Taiwanese.

Re:Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab by hammock on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @12:01PM (#31656282)
> semiconductor manufacturing supplies

Which supplies specifically? Aren’t the big ones just silicon and solvents?