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Re:Lumber Prices Slump by dmos62 on Monday June 06, 2022 @02:55AM (#31637884)
That's monopolitic. If there were a producer that did not participate in the price-fix, and could scale his production up, he'd outcompete the price-fixers. I wonder what keeps this setup in place. Sounds like something you'd fight wars over.
Re:Lumber Prices Slump by foota on Monday June 06, 2022 @03:20AM (#31638008)
I think you're being sarcastic, but this is basically what OPEC and others do.
Re:Lumber Prices Slump by refurb on Monday June 06, 2022 @05:32AM (#31638578)
OPEC only controls 40% of all supply and often accuses its members of breaking quotas.

Producers seek the profit maximizing price, not the highest price (those aren’t the same).

Would you rather sell 1,000,000 barrels at a profit of $10 per barrel ($10M profit) OR 1,200,000 barrels at a profit of $9 per barrel ($10.8M profit)?

Re:Lumber Prices Slump by blagie on Monday June 06, 2022 @06:03AM (#31638695)
I would rather sell 1,000,000 barrels at a profit of $10 per barrel:

- If I lowered prices to $9, my competitors would follow, and I'd likely sell only 1,000,000 barrels

- I have a finite supply of oil. If I sell 1,000,000 now, I'll have an extra 200,000 to sell at some point in the future. I'd like each barrel to cost as much as possible.

In other words, there are time dynamics. OPEC might only control 40%, but if everyone follows OPEC, everyone wins. If someone breaks from OPEC, other parties have an incentive to break as well.

There are many silent cabals, where parties don't conspire in any explicit way, except by signalling through market prices.

Re:Lumber Prices Slump by refurb on Monday June 06, 2022 @09:01AM (#31639900)
I would rather sell 1,000,000 barrels at a profit of $10 per barrel

Sure, and I'd love to have $1B, but that doesn't mean I'll get it..

Yes there are time dynamics - ramping up production, production delays due to maintenance, prices changes you can't predict. Nobody has a crystal ball.

And OPEC can't even control it's own members, so I'm highly skeptical anyone else follows them.

Humans are great at seeing patterns where there are none. Oil skyrocketed in 2008, everyone said it would never go down, then it crashed below $20. That doesn't seem like the kind of market where suppliers control the price.

Re:Lumber Prices Slump by lesuorac on Monday June 06, 2022 @11:12AM (#31641515)
> everyone said it would never go down

Citation needed.

The US Gov literally said the current (in 2008) high price are due to demand/supply mismatch and "most industry experts contend that oil resources are plentiful ... Drilling activity is at a high level" [1]. As in the price will go down.

OPEC only needs to control its members a tiny bit. Oil is sold on the margin and so a tiny demand/supply mismatch means a large price difference [2].

[1]: https://www.dallasfed.org/~/media/documents/research/eclett/... [2]: https://www.vox.com/2015/1/5/7493799/oil-prices-chart

Re:Lumber Prices Slump by refurb on Monday June 06, 2022 @08:51PM (#31648494)
Citation? Everyone I spoke with back in 2008? Sure anecdotal, but that's what my comment is basing it on.

Regardless, I think you just proved my point. Supply/demand determines prices not OPEC.

If OPEC controlled prices they wouldn’t have dropped 80% post-2008. Prices were so low that capacity was taken offline and some countries has serious financial difficulties.

That doesn't sounds like a monopolistic market.

Re:Lumber Prices Slump by midasuni on Monday June 06, 2022 @08:08AM (#31639428)
I’d set my price to the point where it’s cheaper than the competition - I.e if a country shift more towards nuclear or wind then I’d tempt them back with lower prices.

The correct solution for the consumer is to massively reduce the reliance on oil, but that requires long term planning which democracies and corporations are awful at.

Re:Lumber Prices Slump by geertj on Monday June 06, 2022 @06:47AM (#31638894)
> Producers seek the profit maximizing price, not the highest price (those aren’t the same).

Is this true when you only have fixed amount of the commodity? Wouldn’t players try to optimize the total NPV of all resources sold into the future?

Re:Lumber Prices Slump by refurb on Monday June 06, 2022 @09:03AM (#31639918)
Oil is not a fixed commodity. New reserves are discovered or become economically viable all the time.
Re:Lumber Prices Slump by dmos62 on Monday June 06, 2022 @05:34AM (#31638583)
That's an interesting point.
Re:Lumber Prices Slump by usrusr on Monday June 06, 2022 @07:21AM (#31639086)
Think of it not as production, think of it as extraction, a conversion of crude safely stored in underground vaults to dollars. Holding back has the double benefit of rising prices now and increasing the amount you can sell in the future. The price-fix is not just about keeping it up, it also has an element of not outdoing each other in the "oil futures" speculation that would be implicit in not extracting now. No oil country (well, no oil country except Norway I suppose) would be happy to enjoy a dominant market share now at the cost of having to leave the market earlier than their peers. One might expect that all the talk about CO2 would shift the balance between those two sides within OPEC (and those that tag along?), but habits change slowly.
Re:Lumber Prices Slump by JumpCrisscross on Monday June 06, 2022 @07:11AM (#31639019)
> there were a producer that did not participate in the price-fix, and could scale his production up, he'd outcompete the price-fixers

New production is capital intensive. It’s currently difficult for oil producers to justify that to investors. The higher prices are only accelerating secular trends towards long-term lower oil demand.

Re:Lumber Prices Slump by thehappypm on Monday June 06, 2022 @09:26AM (#31640158)
Oil companies aren’t like software companies.

Every barrel they pump is a barrel they can’t pump later on. In fact, the cost of oil extraction generally trends upward over time as “easier” wells are exhausted and more expensive ones are tapped.

Sure, going full steam and selling every barrel available would make for a great 2022, but they may pay the price in the future if they suddenly are out of cheap oil

Re:Lumber Prices Slump by KptMarchewa on Monday June 06, 2022 @11:03AM (#31641397)
It differs wildly between producers. Saudi Arabia extracts oil for a few dollars per barrel, while it costs Russia 40-50$.