News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by spikels on Thursday June 02, 2022 @11:37PM (#31603989)
Ford reorganized back in March so that their EV business (Model e) is separate from the legacy ICE business (Ford Blue). There was speculation at the time that this was in part free itself of the dealership sales model. The dealers would keep the dying ICE business while the fast growing EV business would start with clean slate. Farley was quoted describing the EV sales model as:

> "It's going to be much more efficient, a lot more online. It's going to be a really different model."[1]

Obviously this will be very controversial and subject to interference by state legislators who have often protected dealerships. Will be interesting to see this transition.

https://insideevs.com/news/571959/ford-dealerships-impacted-...

Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by stutsmansoft on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:29AM (#31607960)
The dealers brought it on themselves...many of them actively disincentivize EV purchases when you try to buy one.

Why? They want to protect that recurring service bay revenue. Oil changes, plugs, belts, etc.

Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by jjav on Saturday June 04, 2022 @02:09AM (#31617493)
> They want to protect that recurring service bay revenue. Oil changes, plugs, belts, etc.

In the past decade we've had one new ICE car and two new EV cars.

The ICE car has been in the dealer once for a couple hours to replace rear hatch support struts (nothing to do with the engine, so could happen to any EV that has a hatch).

The EV cars have spent many weeks in the dealer for repairs and waiting for parts. Also issues unrelated to the engine, this was for door lock problems and window regulator problems.

In theory the EV motor is simpler than the ICE engine. But in practice, the ICE engines are bulletproof and almost never have problems. In 36 years of owning cars, I've never had a car in a shop (or dealer) for engine issues. It's always electrical system, electronics, seats, windows, shocks, etc. Components that both ICE and EV cars share.

Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by sillyquiet on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:19AM (#31608636)
I am not saying this isn't true, but EV's have a set of maintenance requirements too - there are still a lot of mechanical parts - tires, suspensions, doors, etc. Not to mention electronic maintenance but I guess dealerships would have to re-train, re-certify, and re-tool technicians for that
Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by TheNewsIsHere on Friday June 03, 2022 @03:49PM (#31612831)
Edit: I think I relied to the wrong comment on this sub-thread, but this still contributes, I think.

My spouse and I recently purchased an extremely difficult to find plug-in hybrid EV. We had placed a hold on a specific vehicle destined for delivery to the dealership a few months later. We paid a deposit and signed a receipt that made reference to that vehicle and was given the final price sheet for that specific vehicle at deposit time.

Two days before we were scheduled to pick it up (more than two months after we put the deposit down) the sales guy called and said that the dealership had instituted a new policy on the first of the month that no sales of that specific model and trim level would be authorized by the deal desk without an interior and exterior water resistant coating, and that the lowest price he could offer was an additional $2,500.

As you can imagine that did not stand up to scrutiny and we walked out of there with the vehicle at the total price recorded in the initial paperwork. They signed on the dotted line and never said a word about any new policies until we were ready to pick it up. They did this in a U.S. state where that practice is not legal.

You bet we told Toyota about that when they sent the survey.

If they weren’t making enough to meet their needs then they should have known that when they were negotiating.

Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by _1 on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:34AM (#31608847)
Not nearly on the same scale. I've had a Tesla Model 3 for over three years and 25k miles and have had no maintenance done.
Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:04AM (#31609299)
Just for reference, I've had a Honda Fit for 13 years, and the only maintainance I've had done over what you no doubt had to do on your TM3 (tires, wiper blades) has been oil changes. The car has 164k miles on it.

I'm not saying the EV's are not theoretically more durable and (much) less maintainance-intensive. I am saying that the best of the best ICE vehicles are not as different as your observation about your own TM3 tries to suggest.

Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by kingnothing on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:48AM (#31609935)
You're supposed to do more maintenance than that on your Honda Fit, such as spark plugs every 30k. Granted, it isn't much compared to other ICE cars, but you're downplaying the difference. Your car also has parts that frequently break on all ICE cars, such as a water pump, which simply don't exist on BEV cars.

https://www.normreeveshuntingtonbeach.com/honda-fit-maintena...

Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:56AM (#31610087)
> Your car also has parts that frequently break on all ICE cars,

Well, theoretically yes. The point is that saying "my TM3 has 25k miles and zero maintainance" is worse than anecdata. It's no better than saying "My Fit has had almost zero maintainance at 164k miles". Far better to list the parts and systems not found in an EV, possibly along with likely maintanance schedules.

The spark plugs on the Fit are likely failing right now, btw.

Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by Sohcahtoa82 on Friday June 03, 2022 @02:28PM (#31611936)
> Your car also has parts that frequently break on all ICE cars, such as a water pump, which simply don't exist on BEV cars.

This isn't true. Tesla batteries are liquid cooled. When supercharging, you can hear the fan blowing on the radiator.

Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by gambiting on Friday June 03, 2022 @05:13PM (#31613690)
I have a Volkswagen BEV(an e-Up) and it absolutely has a water pump - it pumps coolant around the charger.
Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by hesdeadjim on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:49AM (#31609064)
I’ve only had my Y for four months now, but I’ve had this very unexpected feeling towards the car (and any EV). I can only describe it as an amalgamation of clean, elegant, and freeing.

While driving there is no engine noise, no unpredictable or delayed acceleration, no need to visit a gas station and have gas drip down the side of the car, and the knowledge that the drivetrain is simple and reliable and isn’t saturated with petroleum products.

I’ve owned some very nice BMWs before the Y, and while I greatly miss the suspension performance I can’t imagine going back to ICE.

Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by kbos87 on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:00AM (#31609232)
Exactly. Tires, wipers, and I’m guessing alignment are the only things the average Tesla owner will ever need to worry about from what I’ve read before I took the leap.

The best description of my experience switching to an EV is that it’s been like going from a VCR straight to streaming. It’s fast, convenient, modern, and doesn’t really degrade.

Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by inferiorhuman on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:45AM (#31609892)
How far back did you look? It wasn't that long ago that Telsa had problems with the drive units failing early, there've been a number of recalls for assembly problems, overly verbose logging and eMMC failures, touchscreen failures, etc.
Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by jsymolon on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:05AM (#31608458)
The ICE is one of the minor items; still needs oil and fluids but are mostly maintenance free for a long while.

All of the other components still need maintenance. Tires, alignment, suspension etc.

Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by norman784 on Friday June 03, 2022 @03:57AM (#31605486)
Excuse my ignorance, but how I understand is that ICE can't be sold directly to the customers, so that's why dealerships exists (?), so my question is, are EV not regulated or treated differently than ICE?
Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by jkilpatr on Friday June 03, 2022 @07:52AM (#31607061)
EV are explicitly treated differently.

Telsa insisted on it's direct sales model and it was more politically expedient for regulators in many states to carve out an exception to the dealership requirement only for car companies that sell EV's exclusively (only tesla at the time).

While I suppose this didn't seem like a huge threat to the car dealership lobby in each state at the time it's clearly come back to bite them and is the main reason Fords Electric vehicle production and distribution is a different 'car company' on paper, so that they can take advantage of legislation designed for tesla.

Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by adamqureshi on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:09AM (#31608506)
Tesla also points out that its prices are fixed, and its salespeople are paid primarily on salary, not commission. “Customers will never be rushed into a purchase, haggle over the price of the car, wonder if they could get a better deal across town, or puzzle over confusing add-on products, like GAP insurance or rust-proofing.”

Back in the 1930s, the car companies established this system so that they could worry about making cars, and the franchises could worry about selling and repairing them.

Early on, though, the franchisees lobbied their state governments for protection. They feared, among other things, that the giant car companies could open up their own stores across the street, cut prices, and crush the franchise like a bug.

To prevent that kind of abuse, all 50 states passed “dealer franchise laws.” They protected the dealerships in various ways—including barring any car maker from selling directly to consumers.

Those laws didn’t foresee the modern era. What they meant, of course, is that “no car company that has franchises can sell directly to consumers.”

They weren’t even thinking about companies that don’t have franchises, because there weren’t any at the time.

Over the years, Tesla’s legal team has gone from one state legislature to another, pointing out how that rule has become outdated, and suggesting that it get changed. In some cases, they succeeded.

In others, though, Tesla is running into a tougher obstacle.

Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by dx034 on Friday June 03, 2022 @04:09AM (#31605565)
I believe the dealership network exists for historical reasons and car companies can't get rid of them for their existing models. Now's the time to change that using EVs as a reason. But it's something many car manufacturers would've liked to start doing 5-10 years ago.
Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by rascul on Friday June 03, 2022 @05:47AM (#31606231)
EV are regulated also. See for example Tesla's trouble selling directly to customers in some states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes

Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by runnerup on Thursday June 02, 2022 @11:46PM (#31604040)
Huge thanks for this context.
Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by maxerickson on Friday June 03, 2022 @08:56AM (#31607587)
Is that an actual legal reorganization of the company that would separate contractual obligations, or is it more of an accounting and reporting thing?
Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by wumpus on Friday June 03, 2022 @02:08AM (#31604816)
> Ford reorganized back in March so that their EV business (Model e) is separate from the legacy ICE business (Ford Blue).

State legislatures and courts have been smacking down this kind of shenanigan for nearly a century now.

Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by mrDmrTmrJ on Monday June 06, 2022 @12:44AM (#31637316)
Not sure why you're being downvoted.

Personally, I think theres ~50% chance Ford will have to split into two companies (separate stock ticker etc.) to be allowed to have an EV only, no-dealership, sales model,

Re:Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegoti... by wumpus on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:56AM (#31610079)
Kinda fun when I get mildly downvoted for mentioning a relevant historical fact.