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Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by adastra22 on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @05:26PM (#31575155)
They don’t teach cursive anymore.
Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by dsr_ on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @05:33PM (#31575228)
It took about an hour of practice to learn Graffiti, the PalmOS modified handwriting system. Humans are a lot better at adapting to computers than the other way around.

I was taught cursive in 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade... and it hurts my hand, and looks terrible, so I don't do that. My usual writing is a modified drafter's font.

Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by valley_guy_12 on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @06:03PM (#31575489)
Some engineer (I forget if it was an Apple engineer or a Handspring engineer) once remarked that Graffiti was a much smarter way to do handwriting recognition than Newton, because: "If the Palm Pilot made a mistake, people blamed themselves for not writing Graffiti correctly. If Newton made a mistake, people blamed Apple."
Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by hnfong on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @09:57PM (#31577197)
"autocorrect fails" :D
Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by wmf on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @10:16PM (#31577303)
I was a Newton fanboy and Graffiti hater... and then I actually tried Graffiti and realized it's so much better. It's a powerful lesson about how technical superiority isn't everything.
Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by zinckiwi on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @11:41PM (#31577787)
I used Palm Pilots in college and got very proficient with Graffiti, to the extent that it became a pseudo-shorthand for me when taking pen-and-paper notes in class.

Of course, I also had a Newton MP2000 (later upgraded to 2100) that I used in labs to input data to the native spreadsheet program, imported the resulting graphs into the native word processor for the writeup, and stopped by on the way back to the dorm to print it out wirelessly, all before anyone else sat down at their computers. That felt like magic.

Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by reaperducer on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @06:12PM (#31575562)
They don’t teach cursive anymore.

Depends on the school.

Low-end public school? Probably not. But private schools, and my nephew's Catholic school do.

I've never understood the internet's hate for cursive. Are people who don't learn cursive not able to read the first line of a California license plate, or locate a Walgreen's pharmacy?

Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by troutwine on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @06:43PM (#31575819)
> I've never understood the internet's hate for cursive. Are people who don't learn cursive not able to read the first line of a California license plate, or locate a Walgreen's pharmacy?

It's sort of an outdated mode of writing that survived due to inertia. Cursive is super, super useful when your writing tool can't withstand repeat impacts against the writing medium -- like a quill -- or if lifting will cause your writing tool to leak against the medium. Theoretically it's also faster to write than block characters, but the speed differences appear to be minimal for short-duration writing with the benefit of uniformity of block characters _outside_ of cultures that stress uniformity of cursive lettering. Worth pointing out that the examples you give here are not especially stylized letters and that Walgreens, outside of its red cursive letter logo, generally prefers a sans-serif block lettering. That said, I'm sure for someone not familiar with cursive lettering the 'r' and 's' look especially inscrutable, but most humans tolerate unreadable characters pretty well when scanning words we already know.

The slow death of cursive is indicative of the change in medium: most people write to one another by computer, or on mechanically printed paper. It's a similar process by which we started adding vowels, spaces and punctuation: the constraints of the medium or its tools improved with time.

Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by felipemnoa on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @06:54PM (#31575894)
>>Cursive is super, super useful when your writing tool can't withstand repeat impacts against the writing medium

In my experience it is much more comfortable to write cursive. You do not have to lift the pen for every single letter. It is quite annoying to have to do that, quite honestly. My hand feels much more happier to be able to just follow a flow.

I also do not understand the hate, it is much more comfortable. It is like hating touch typing. Sure, you can type with two fingers but not very efficiently.

To each their own I guess.

Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by kalleboo on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @04:54AM (#31579564)
> I also do not understand the hate, it is much more comfortable

The hate stems from when we were taught it (poorly) in elementary school, where it was slower, physically painful and the result was illegible.

Now I go weeks between writing anything physically at all (and even most of that is Kanji now as I moved to Japan) so learning a new way of writing seems pointless

Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by BeFlatXIII on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @08:58AM (#31581161)
Those claims are not true at all as a southpaw. I was pushing the pencil instead of smoothly pulling it. As soon as my teachers stopped requiring cursive and only cared that we wrote with whatever handwriting was most legible, I dropped it.
Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by troutwine on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @07:02PM (#31575953)
Oh yeah, for sure. The hand is certainly part of 'the tool' and variation there will make different approaches to forming characters comfortable for different people. My own hand is a small block with occasional tails between letters which I find comfortable to write in but is very idiosyncratic. I was taught to primarily write in cursive as a child and then re-taught to write in architectural block as a young adult, which I'm sure has something to do with it.
Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by reaperducer on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @07:20PM (#31576111)
Cursive is super, super useful when your writing tool can't withstand repeat impacts against the writing medium -- like a quill -- or if lifting will cause your writing tool to leak against the medium.

Cursive is unrelated to quills and ink. Quills and ink existed for a thousand years before cursive was invented.

Cursive exists to relive the strain of writing a lot. Printing is much harder on the hands that cursive. If cursive hurts when you write, you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to hold the implement very loosely and gently, not like you're holding on for dear life.

the 'r' and 's' look especially inscrutable

The cursive "r" is an "r" with a bit on the right linking to the next letter.

The cursive "s" is an "s" with a bit on the left linking it to the previous letter.

The forms have evolved over the centuries, but they're still there. Even the weird capital F makes sense if you write it enough times. It's an "F" made without lifting the pen.

I went to public school early in life, and so didn't learn cursive. When I joined a private school, everyone was already writing cursive, and I had to catch up. It took me maybe three weeks. I remember getting g and q was hard for me. But people are able to learn new things every day.

Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by spc476 on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @09:33PM (#31577037)
Modern pens are horrible to write with, you have to press down on the paper to get the ink out, and doing so causes the fingers (or at least, my fingers) to cramp up. I switched to a fountain pen over a year ago, and the difference is night to day. No longer do I have to press down on the paper---the ink just flows out of the pen with no pressure required, and it's now a pleasure to write cursive. I also think my handwriting improved just using a fountain pen.
Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by troutwine on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @07:41PM (#31576266)
> But people are able to learn new things every day.

I don't think anyone suggested otherwise?

I think the conversation might be slightly hung up on the specific example of a quill (reed stylus, sharpened bird bone, charcoal stick, brush all encourage a flowing character), nor is the only reason to prefer cursive writing to relieve hand strain, although that's true for informal long-form and for some hands and for some alphabets. My general point here is that the medium of writing tends to dictate the common forms of writing and with the common medium now being mechanical -- computer, printer etc -- we're seeing a shift in how people form their characters, if they even form them by hand at all.

Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by BeFlatXIII on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:08AM (#31581278)
I don't think cursive's ergonomic claims hold for lefties, as we have to push the pen instead of smoothly pulling it along. Perhaps if I were writing Arabic, my opinion would be different.
Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by diablerouge on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:47PM (#31585447)
I'm a lefty and have found cursive very comfortable (and I'm also both an underwriter and an overwriter.) Perhaps if you're a sidewriter you get the worse experience of pushing a pen.

I definitely find writing a nicer experience with a pencil, a fountain pen, or a felt-tipped pen - ballpoints require too much pressure to be comfortable.

Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by anon2020dot00 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:53PM (#31585517)
As a lefty side-writer, I find no challenge with using cursive. Writing in print is also pushing most of the time so I don't understand the claim that lefties has to push more.
Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by nsonha on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @09:14PM (#31576913)
> I've never understood the internet's hate for cursive

Isn't the whole point to handwrite faster, which people don't even do anymore? I for one didn't write fast in cursive so even that's not true.

On the other hand it's harder to read, harder to OCR.

Given text is read way more than it is written, the choice is clear.

Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by Ancapistani on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @11:37PM (#31577771)
I’ve actually found my cursive to be much more reliable to OCR. I think it’s because I explicitly learned cursive when I picked up fountain pens as an adult, as a result my letter forms are consistent. Maybe not “correct”, but consistent.

I even went through a period where I used the “long s” in my script, and I was able to get that to OCR just fine after some training.

Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by nsonha on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:34AM (#31578118)
may have something to do with cursive letters having more "features". I only assume it's harder to OCR but that needs proof. I think it's safe to say that reading cursive is slower for humans.
Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by Gigachad on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @05:18AM (#31579675)
Was at a private catholic school in Australia and they dropped cursive in around 2012.
Re:Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on by ineedasername on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @11:47AM (#31583608)
My kids all learned cursive in school. But maybe it varies by country and region of the country. I'm in the US, east coast. Public school in a mix of blue & white collar-- more blue collar though-- in a small city that's a suburb to a large city.