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Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by a_square_peg on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @10:47PM (#31513779)
Maybe slightly off-topic, but I think this is a part of a larger trend of a declining empire - its inability to solve problems that have already become non-issues in other societies. From big issues like healthcare to small stuff like getting rid of pennies, I'm amazed at how the US is beholden to special interest groups under the guise of democracy and freedom, as well as its exceptionalism.

One can see this in dysfunctional companies, from its inability to acknowledge the root of the problem (e.g. trying to solve product problems with re-branding), bloated bureaucracy and rent-seeking behavours (e.g. we'll just raise the price!).

I really do hope things get better because the outcome is very scary but I also don't have much hope.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by BobbyJo on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:13PM (#31513974)
I honestly don't see this as a symptom of that. Economic and tax base problems, where our best knowledge can point to us doing the "wrong" thing, or at least not doing the "right" thing, sure. Those objective things that we mess up are indicative of systemic issues.

Some people just aren't scared of guns, or of a world where everyone has one, regardless of the real risk such a world would entail.

Differences within the populace with regard to risk tolerance and perception doesn't tell you anything about systemic issues. It just points to cultural differences. That is itself an issue, but certainly of a different flavor than "declining empire". It could still tear things down, but it would be more explosion than stagnation and collapse.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by a_square_peg on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:38PM (#31514181)
> Differences within the populace with regard to risk tolerance and perception doesn't tell you anything about systemic issues.

How we deal with it as a society does though - some people don't mind going fast but we as a society decided to impose speed limits on roads, especially around schools. Some people don't mind the smell of cigarettes but we as a society decided that indoor smoking shouldn't be allowed in general. No one likes paying taxes but as a society, we accept that we need it to function, however imperfect the process may be.

This is where US feels like a dysfunctional society when viewed from outside. If US views occasional mass-shootings as a non-issue, sure. But if it does see it as a problem and it's not able to deal with it because for whatever reason (culture, freedom, constitution etc.), I think that's a problem.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by BobbyJo on Thursday May 26, 2022 @09:27PM (#31525186)
> This is where US feels like a dysfunctional society when viewed from outside. If US views occasional mass-shootings as a non-issue, sure. But if it does see it as a problem and it's not able to deal with it because for whatever reason (culture, freedom, constitution etc.), I think that's a problem.

My interpretation isn't that some people don't see a problem, its just that different people believe in different solutions because the 'cost' of proposed policies is different to them. The cost of new guns laws is huge for some, and non-existent to others.

Honestly I think the national gun debate is kind of a joke. Most of the farthest left states don't even enforce or do a good job implementing the laws they have already. What difference would it make if the policy in DC changed when the cops on the street and the capital at home don't care. Buying a gun in California is just as easy as it is in Florida, it's just a bad idea because you can be thrown in jail the rest of your life if you use it even in self defense, so people don't buy them as often.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by mahastore on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:19PM (#31514035)
You can burn a lot of words for sure. This culture also exists in other places and owning an automatic military grade gun in the society is perfectly acceptable. Want to know the name of this place? It is Afghanistan , Sudan and a host of places like that. They may be highly cultural but not exactly civilized society as per our norms and not something we ever aspire to be. We want to reach for the mars ? First let us learn to not empower people to kill each other.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by welshwelsh on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:36PM (#31514178)
It's not appropriate to compare the United States to Afghanistan or Sudan. Better to pick countries with similar GDP per capita.

Switzerland is a good point of comparison; they have about half as many guns per capita as the US which includes military-grade weapons, but no mass shootings.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by mahastore on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:53PM (#31514295)
Yes but USA population is 329 Million , Switzerland 8 million. Switzerland has the highest number of gun deaths in Europe.

Source: google.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by welshwelsh on Thursday May 26, 2022 @02:52PM (#31522065)
That's true, but additional gun deaths in Switzerland are suicides. Gun homicides in Switzerland are below the EU average.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by katbyte on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:19PM (#31514030)
Scared of guns or not, they seem to be willing to put "guns" before lives. children's lives. Unwilling to make even the smallest compromise to prevent mass shootings like so many other countries have.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by lghh on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:27PM (#31514105)
It feels like gun-owners in the US hav made lots of compromises about weapon ownership. I feel like saying otherwise is dishonest.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by XuMiao on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:55PM (#31514307)
To be honest, many potential murders sacrifice themselves so much that I can live safely. I really should have thanked them for not killing me.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by rhcom2 on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:35PM (#31514161)
There are plenty that think any compromise is anti 2A. And the amount of compromise is wildly dependent on state.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by katbyte on Thursday May 26, 2022 @02:00AM (#31515159)
This is my point - people are dying. Lots of people. Children. And your response is “we’ve made enough compromises NO MORE! Let them continue to die” because your gun is more important then 100s of children's lives each year.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by BobbyJo on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:29PM (#31514115)
1000 kids a year die because of cars, are you putting cars before kids lives by not outlawing them?
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by longbrass on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:36PM (#31514172)
We have many laws and regulation in place to lower children MV deaths. This includes things like seat belt, booster seat, child seat expiration and couple zones, and rollover protection.

The fact of the matter is that

“The previous analysis, which examined data through 2016, showed that firearm-related injuries were second only to motor vehicle crashes (both traffic-related and nontraffic-related) as the leading cause of death among children and adolescents, defined as persons 1 to 19 years of age. Since 2016, that gap has narrowed, and in 2020, firearm-related injuries became the leading cause of death in that age group. From 2019 to 2020, the relative increase in the rate of firearm-related deaths of all types (suicide, homicide, unintentional, and undetermined) among children and adolescents was 29.5% — more than twice as high as the relative increase in the general population.”

So outlawing vehicles is not proposed but laws, and regulation to control risk appears to be effective.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2201761

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by BobbyJo on Thursday May 26, 2022 @07:25AM (#31517055)
And with all of those laws and regulation, still 1000 kids a year die. So, again, why are we choosing cars over kids lives?

Well, we aren't. We are applying cost benefit analysis, which is subjective. Society agrees pretty uniformly that motor vehicles are worth the risk. It's the same with guns, there just isn't as much of a consensus. Some people thing the risk is worth it, others don't.

If you frame it as a binary right and wrong based on your own risk tolerance rather than making genuine arguments for certain trade offs you aren't having a good faith conversation, which is what I was satirizing.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by longbrass on Thursday May 26, 2022 @09:06AM (#31517843)
I agree, further to this line of thinking I’m not really seeing how widespread adoption of arms by the general public has as many benefits as private vehicle ownership. Apart from environmental externalities, we know the cost for one is higher in terms of strict mortality… to that end shouldn’t the social utility of fire arms be higher? I can use my car to get my kids to school at least.

Perhaps we go in on a startup to modify the AR platform to distribute COVID tests or vaccines?

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by BobbyJo on Thursday May 26, 2022 @10:31PM (#31525500)
> I’m not really seeing how widespread adoption of arms by the general public has as many benefits as private vehicle ownership.

If you listen to gun fanatics, the benefits of widespread arms ownership is a government scared to overstep. How much that is worth to you depends on how much you worry about the government infringing on your rights, and how much you think guns being around prevent that.

I personally subscribe to that ideology to a degree (not full tilt, but somewhat). The US has the oldest constitution, and that's arguably only possible if the federal government hasn't pissed us all off too much :P

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by katbyte on Thursday May 26, 2022 @01:58AM (#31515146)
I never said outlaw, I said compromise. Are school speed zones not a thing in America? Child seats? Speed limits? Cross walks? School crossing guards? All the other steps taken to make cars and the roads around schools and playgrounds safer?

We all recognize cars are dangerous and there are laws and regulations to combat that.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by 1986 on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:35PM (#31514162)
We gain massive societal benefit from the existence of cars, what equally large societal benefit is gained from the easy availability of firearms?
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by dqv on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:35PM (#31514168)
Well they said nothing of entirely outlawing guns, but yes a lot of people put cars before kids’ lives and I would like to see that change.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by rhcom2 on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:57PM (#31514319)
No one is driving SUVs down elementary school hall ways
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by BobbyJo on Thursday May 26, 2022 @07:27AM (#31517071)
So it's only bad if kids die in school? If the same number of kids were killed every year by gun violence, but there weren't any school shootings, then there wouldn't need to be any change?
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by rhcom2 on Thursday May 26, 2022 @12:08PM (#31520064)
No of course there still needs to be a change. Your comparison falls apart because there isn't a epidemic of targeted violence against children using cars, while there is with guns.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by philistine on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:19PM (#31514037)
When I first visited the US, I was in a burger shop and complaining to my wife to the tune of: "Urgh, her come the pennies again. I'm so happy to be rid of them." The cashier was incredulous that Canada had gotten rid of pennies.

That something so mundane and annoying, pennies, is impossible to solve for the the US is eerily similar to Caligula playing music while his city burned.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by maxerickson on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:38PM (#31514182)
I mostly don't use cash and throw small coin change into a drawer or whatever. In the last 10 years I've probably dealt with like 300 pennies. The horror!

Like it would be fine if they did just disappear, but it's also a pretty "meh" issue day to day.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by tomrod on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @10:59PM (#31513876)
Ray Dalio's Changing World Order is a good read. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xguam0TKMw8
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by pclmulqdq on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:09PM (#31513951)
I think Ray Dalio does a good job talking about the decline of the American empire, but I'm not sure his huge bets on the rise of China are well-placed. India also appears to have a good case for "next big empire" and it is often the case that when two world powers fight, they destroy each other. For example, the UK and Germany in WWII - the UK won the war, but ended up in huge financial trouble that caused its decline.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by mahastore on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:22PM (#31514062)
India and China had the highest GDP 250 years ago. So it is not surprising that they will grow back again.That necessarily does not mean USA people have to kill each other. There is enough room for global prosperity if only we have the patience and the right attitude. To start with - stop killing each other.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by XorNot on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:39PM (#31514192)
The problem is China's government supports just a monumental level of corruption and graft, and has been doing so by exploiting the "developing nation" growth boone.

But that only works once: its days of 7-8% GDP growth year over year[1] are behind it and not coming back. The CCP government seems somewhat aware of this - the social credit system, internet firewall and various other police state measures seem to be an effort to "pre-oppress" the population once the growth levels off (or flat lines entirely) since the implied social contract of China has always been "tomorrow is better then today" - and that's all going to stop once the graft and corruption eats the much lower GDP growth which a developed nation has.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/263616/gross-domestic-pr...

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by XuMiao on Thursday May 26, 2022 @12:12AM (#31514429)
US was wiser than others because we were able to look at our mistakes and fix them admirably.

It's only a weak character who tries to demonize others in exchange for self-comforting. Sadly, I'm seeing more and more people doing that.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by tomrod on Thursday May 26, 2022 @07:15AM (#31516991)
I agree with your second paragraph, but see no relation to the comment preceding it. Can you please expound?
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by wslh on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:40PM (#31514199)
With all due respect to you and Ray Dalio: Ray is examining patterns within a relative short timeframe and we can always expect a "this time is different" moment or we are in a radical shift in patterns, a black swan or whatever we like to call it. This is just an hypothesis: things follow a pattern until the pattern changes and we are living in an incredible moment when science and technology are accelerating and could solve many human problems that we see impossible now. US is in an incredible position if you compare it with other countries in the world.

US has a lot of issues but we can see it as a platform offering more chances to succeed than other (countries) platforms. You don't need the entire population to succeed, with only a few outliers (Google, Facebook, open Source, an NGO) you can structurally change US and the entire world. I don't want to sound positive about US but more negative about other countries in the world. You cannot take apart the military aspect (even after disastrous wars) the weapons are there in the US. A crisis is completely possible but the gap between the US and other countries is amazing AND US is a talent atractor.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by wolverine876 on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:42PM (#31514208)
We don't need complex theories. It's as simple as a political party opposes action on gun issues. The solution is to vote them out.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by refurb on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:29PM (#31514117)
This kind of comment screams of lack of perspective.

In the 1960's the US had multiple race riots where dozens died and cities were burnt down. It was bogged down in a war in SE Asia and had constant protests. Radical groups were killing policemen and sending bombs to politicians. Political leaders were being assassinated on a regular basis. The economy was in shambles.

Things are way better than then, but for some reason people think the end is near.

Time to take a break from social media I think!

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by nemo44x on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:11PM (#31513963)
America is ready to go from our republic phase into our empire phase. We only need our Caesar…
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by philistine on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:14PM (#31513987)
You have him already.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by bergenty on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:23PM (#31514071)
If it is who I think you’re referring to, America needs its Brutus now.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by zionic on Thursday May 26, 2022 @12:12AM (#31514431)
If only. We’re trying to skip the empire phase and go direct to collapse
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by nemo44x on Thursday May 26, 2022 @07:25AM (#31517053)
That is a very strong possibility too.