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Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by jl6 on Saturday May 21, 2022 @03:36AM (#31456025)
What gets me about prehistory is that even before civilization (the development of permanent settlements), humans existed in anatomically modern form, and even if they never wrote anything down, would surely still have used language. What did they talk about? We know that illiterate people today are perfectly capable of forming complex thoughts and reasoning. When did those thoughts first emerge? Somebody must have been the first to look up and the stars and wonder. They could have done more than just wonder. There could have been geniuses and villains and poets and master storytellers, long before they had any capability to preserve their culture through writing. And this was probably tens or even hundreds of thousands of years before the earliest stone remains that we call civilization.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by kqr on Saturday May 21, 2022 @03:44AM (#31456060)
A useful heuristic as far as I know is to imagine "what would a modern human do in that environment?"

Make foraging plans, tell stories, bicker, gossip, predict weather, teach toolmaking and clothesmaking, discuss fair allocation of resources, arrange parties, celebrate relationships, make gifts, design song performances, learn dance moves, coordinate construction, agree on repairs for criminal damages, learn local and exotic flora, plan long travels to faraway lands, and the list goes on.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by kqr on Saturday May 21, 2022 @07:35AM (#31456998)
As far as geniuses go, many of the people we would think of as geniuses today have two things the people we are discussing here had not:

- They are able to stand on the shoulders of a far broader range of giants, thanks to writing; and

- They have access to far more tools of reasoning (arithmetic with Roman numerals is just the start!) that those in the past did not have.

So while there may well have been intellectual equals to the geniuses of today also back then, they would not have been able to perform the feats of geniuses today. Again, for lack of tooling, not wit.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by eropple on Saturday May 21, 2022 @09:22AM (#31457648)
> arithmetic with Roman numerals is just the start!

Arabic, I think you mean. Arithmetic with Roman numerals is awful.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by laxmin on Saturday May 21, 2022 @09:48AM (#31457874)
Hindu numerals if we have to be precise, transmitted to the west by Arabs
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by eropple on Saturday May 21, 2022 @10:16AM (#31458130)
Right, true--the term I've most often heard in Western circles these days is "Hindu-Arabic" numerals, but I didn't want to confuse.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by CydeWeys on Saturday May 21, 2022 @10:49AM (#31458373)
I've also heard the term Western Arabic, contrasted with Eastern Arabic.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by kqr on Saturday May 21, 2022 @09:59AM (#31457987)
...of course. Roman numerals held us back for centuries. Sorry about that embarrassing brainfart.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by Jedd on Saturday May 21, 2022 @09:51AM (#31457910)
> Arabic, I think you mean. Arithmetic with Roman numerals is awful.

Hindu numerals, do you mean?

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by earth_walker on Saturday May 21, 2022 @10:52AM (#31458401)
Why Hindu (the religion) and not Hindi (the language)?
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by Jedd on Saturday May 21, 2022 @11:07AM (#31458534)
I really don't know. It's generally phrased as Hindu-originating - I can only speculate why it's now attached to a religious / social group rather than a language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Hindu%E2%80%93A...

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by danschuller on Saturday May 21, 2022 @10:17AM (#31458136)
I guess for now we can't know - but were they truly modern humans? They might have had the same hardware but the cultural/consciousness software may have been far different than what we have today. It's fun to think about, books like The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind or the Sapiens both explore some version of this.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by raffraffraff on Saturday May 21, 2022 @10:49AM (#31458380)
Fart jokes. I absolutely guarantee you, the were fart jokes.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by jhoechtl on Saturday May 21, 2022 @10:15AM (#31458121)
All creditable goal. What about warefare?
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by kajaktum on Saturday May 21, 2022 @07:35AM (#31456997)
>what would a modern human do in that environment?

and be sure to knock them in the head (and everyone that you want to bring with them) so they won't remember anything. I doubt they are any different than a hairless monkey. One thing that we got going for us is the written/oral knowledge that we have accumulated.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by towaway15463 on Saturday May 21, 2022 @09:23AM (#31457655)
This is probably closer to the truth. We don’t notice the benefits of modern society and institutions because they are the water that we swim in, they have “always” existed since we were born into them. We are blissfully unaware that a few short centuries ago people often behaved in much more depraved ways as soon as they were far enough away from the tenuous rule of law. I believe the reasons why it took us a hundred thousand years to escape a subsistence lifestyle were more to do with man’s inhumanity to man than it was a reluctance to leave some imagined eden.

A George Carlin quote comes to mind:

Think of how stupid the average person is and then realize that half of them are stupider than that.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by kqr on Saturday May 21, 2022 @10:06AM (#31458050)
> We are blissfully unaware that a few short centuries ago people often behaved in much more depraved ways as soon as they were far enough away from the tenuous rule of law.

What makes you think this is true? I have plenty of experience of people who play very nicely with each other, even when they are for all practical purposes not bound by law to.

> why it took us a hundred thousand years to escape a subsistence lifestyle

You use the word "escape" as though we are universally better off now than when we spent a few hours a day foraging. Do you have evidence for this? What if people preferred to live their lives the way they did -- much like, I suppose, you prefer to live life the way you do?

(No doubt do many people now have it better than many people then, but it sounds like you're asserting that the opposite is not the case too.)

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by macleginn on Saturday May 21, 2022 @03:44AM (#31456065)
Very close similarities between mythological narratives in very different parts of the world (e.g., South Africa and Australia) show that some of them should have appeared tens of thousands of years ago. The earliest motifs seem to be about the origin of death. https://folklore.elpub.ru/jour/article/view/28?locale=en_US
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by kqr on Saturday May 21, 2022 @03:55AM (#31456106)
Humans are amazing at recording facts through narratives passed down through generations. Geography that has long since disappeared can be preserved through thousands o years: https://www.sapiens.org/language/oral-tradition/
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by fouronnes3 on Saturday May 21, 2022 @04:04AM (#31456141)
Humans in 13k years will look back and wonder at us too. Somebody must have been the first to upload to the HyperBrainSuperXL10000 and feel one with the solar system.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by pjmlp on Saturday May 21, 2022 @04:40AM (#31456287)
The way things are going, we will be the next dinosaurs, and that civilization in 13k will be digging artifacts from our time, while telling legends of a civilization that supposedly went to the stars, could travel across the globe in hours, being able to talk with anyone across the globe, cure most desease, designed machines that could see bodies at molecular level.

Naturally every adult knows that those stories are just ways for the grandparents to ease kids into their sleep, who would believe in such nonsense, given the current state of the planet in 13k years.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by Luc on Saturday May 21, 2022 @04:51AM (#31456343)
Are you talking about global warming? Because that’s going to make a lot of people miserable but is far from a global civilisation destroying event.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by pjmlp on Saturday May 21, 2022 @06:10AM (#31456650)
Global warming, nukes, pandemics, you name it, we are quite good destroying ourselves.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by Luc on Saturday May 21, 2022 @06:36AM (#31456744)
None of those are destroying our civilizations, in fact we are better off now than 10 years ago on all those issues.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by pjmlp on Saturday May 21, 2022 @07:06AM (#31456875)
Just wait for it, specially if we really get into WW III with nukes.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by Luc on Saturday May 21, 2022 @07:20AM (#31456934)
The nukes prohibit their own use. Besides, there's been more than 2000 nuclear bombs exploded, >500 of which in the atmosphere, and I bet you didn't notice.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by pjmlp on Saturday May 21, 2022 @09:16AM (#31457600)
I also expect not to notice when the real ones explode close to Europe, much better than deal with the fallout thereafter.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by gigglesupstairs on Saturday May 21, 2022 @05:33AM (#31456520)
I used to think like that. But Covid has really humbled me. Not to mention the possible release of ancient viruses due to melting permafrost.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/05/the-deadly-diseases-b...

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by trashtester on Saturday May 21, 2022 @06:31AM (#31456726)
I tend to be labeled a pessimist. When covid came, I was not surprised. If anything, I was surprised that it was not more deadly. At the same time (March 2020), I expected that Covid would lead to supply chain disruptions, nationalizatoin of industry and international conflict.

The way I see it, the period from 1945 to 2020 was the exception, not the norm. Apart from that period (in the Western World), humans have been facing more difficult times than 2020-2022 through most of history. Still we have surivived, and at times, prospered.

In the future, we may face disasters (climate change, pandemics, wars) that are hundreds of times worse than covid. Still none of those (except possibly nuclear war at some point) are likely to be the end of humanity, or even set us back so much that we are completely unable to record history. (A big nuclear war today would perhaps be a setback for human knowledge of history comparable to the loss of the librariy in Alexandria)

There are still existential threats. One may be if we build millions of new nukes and use them all at once. Others could be technological (AI, nanotech), yet other could come from space (asteroids, aliens).

But for humanity to be wiped out by pandemics or climate change seems highly unlikely.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by ragingrobot on Saturday May 21, 2022 @06:45AM (#31456784)
> The way I see it, the period from 1945 to 2020 was the exception, not the norm. Apart from that period (in the Western World), humans have been facing more difficult times than 2020-2022 through most of history. Still we have surivived, and at times, prospered.

Now you got me thinking about this. Perhaps that period was a technological "sweet spot." Technology assisted us in our tasks. It wasn't too primitive where it hindered us like the periods prior. On the flip side, we were not overly reliant on that assistance like perhaps we are now (think chip shortages disrupting nearly every facet of life).

Also, population growth. The planet is significantly more populated. For example, had this baby formula shortage happened during a period of less population, could it have had less of an impact? Even if the same proportion of the population were, it may have been not so great of a stress as supplies may have stretched longer.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by trashtester on Saturday May 21, 2022 @08:11AM (#31457176)
> Now you got me thinking about this. Perhaps that period was a technological "sweet spot."

Maybe, but I really doubt that. I find it much more likely that it was a combination of luck and culture. (Or rather of a culture that had not yet been corrupted.)

Anyway, even Corona was an extremely minor disaster, in the grand scope of things. In terms of years of life lost, the average per capita number is in the order of between a few days and a couple of weeks. Had corona been spreading in 1946, it would hardly have been noticed.

By comparison, the Black Death probably caused average life expectancy to fall by something like 20 years, globally for those alive when it started to spread. In other words, Covid was less than 1% as serious as the Black Death for the average person.

> Also, population growth. The planet is significantly more populated. For example, had this baby formula shortage happened during a period of less population, could it have had less of an impact?

Most people througout history would be completely unable to grasp why we make a fuss about things like the baby formula shortage. They were used to child mortality in the order of 50%, even in peacetime. Lack of baby formula in the US may perhaps cause the child mortality rate to go up by 0.000001%.

If I have a concern, it is not that we are living through difficult times now. We are not, these are still some of the best time in human history (for the average person, even in most developing countries). Rather my concern, is that most people have NO CLUE how much worse it can get.

I don't mean the semi-religious concern that you can find surrounding climate change, or a fatalist view on nuclear war. This kind of fatalism tends to just passify people, make them shrug, and say "if it happens, we're all dead anyway".

I mean for people to actually imagine living in a world where it is normal for your children to die from starvation, where there are no medicines. Where the infection in your thumb that you got from working in the fields until your hands were bleeding can actually kill you. Where packs of wolf-dogs roam the cities to feed on human corpses, many of them carrying rabies.

I mean in particular the willingness so many people seem to have to tear down our institutions that work very well, because they identify some minor flaw. Their willingness to polarize politically, the re-emergance of both facist and communist ideas to conveniently place the blame for our small problems on the "Others". And finally the signs that countries once again seem to be willing to use military force to annex other nations, for no other reason than nationalism.

I don't predict that any of this will lead to human extinction, but I'm worried that within 100-200 years we will see a conflict that will completely eclipse WW2, with 500million or more deaths.

THIS is why I call myself a pessimist, because I see it as likely (or not as unlikely as I would like) that humanity will return to a state that is, in fact, more or less the average of what humanity has experienced up until now, while most people seem to take it for granted that the near-Utopian (EDIT) situation we have now will remain mostly as it is.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by jhoechtl on Saturday May 21, 2022 @10:24AM (#31458191)
> Maybe, but I really doubt that. I find it much more likely that it was a combination of luck and culture. (Or rather of a culture that had not yet been corrupted.)

I really think it was all the aftermath of WWII. That was such a catastrophic event with all that "never forget", that instead of going for war, peace was the better solution at any cost (for west and central Europe). Now as the remembrance is waning, military options become increasingly an option. The germans shipping heavy military equipment? Unthinkable 10 years ago.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by trashtester on Saturday May 21, 2022 @11:15AM (#31458605)
WW2 was probably the main ingredient, but without Mutually Assured Destruction, a common enemy in the Soviet Union, a booming economy as well as the lessons learned in the 20's and 30's about not living beyond your means, the effect might have ended sooner.

In other words, the 1945-2020 period required "luck" in a number of dimensions, and should be considered a fluke, not the norm.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by simonh on Saturday May 21, 2022 @09:09AM (#31457545)
COVID was a minor speed bump, in the grand scheme of things. I’m not playing it down in a “it’s just the flu” Trump kind of way, but it was no worse than the Spanish flu or many past pandemics. It didn’t even cause a recession really, most of the economic issues we have at the moment are self inflicted.

We’re just not used to dealing with a disease like this. It was a serious problem, but the idea that it was any kind of existential threat is absurdly hyperbolic.

The Spanish flu was similarly dangerous and virulent, it’s impact was vastly greater, yet for most people it’s a forgotten historical footnote.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by jhoechtl on Saturday May 21, 2022 @10:30AM (#31458232)
> It didn’t even cause a recession really, most of the economic issues we have at the moment are self inflicted.

It did, it was central banks by pressing money, who held the faith in economy high. There would, and time will tell, should have been some more companies default.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by monkeynotes on Saturday May 21, 2022 @06:14AM (#31456662)
COVID was mindblowing. For the first time in recorded history the entire planet coordinated a response to an existential threat. And we survived.

In a matter of just three years we rethought how we work, live, travel, and socialize. The global community came up with a vaccine in an extraordinarily short amount of time, and then coordinated a roll out.

We've seen how humanity can adapt at scale when we are motivated. I don't know what answer we will have to the ecological ruin we have layed out. Maybe we don't have an answer to it, that will be a truly humbling moment.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by lebuffon on Saturday May 21, 2022 @08:22AM (#31457240)
"For the first time in recorded history the entire planet coordinated a response to an existential threat"

Umm... - Smallpox eradication was a global effort. - Polio eradication was a global effort.(unfortunately delayed by religious fanatics in a small number of countries)

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by gigglesupstairs on Saturday May 21, 2022 @08:01AM (#31457135)
I agree with all that you said. It is a great feat to witness. But just imagine, multiple viruses like Covid-19 cropping up all at once. That’s where we will fail.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by hnlmorg on Saturday May 21, 2022 @08:31AM (#31457293)
We were already shifting to different working patterns before COVID hit. Had it been 10 years earlier it would have been much more impactful but the concept of working from home wasn’t novel in a great many industries before COVID. And those that couldn’t function remotely continued operate largely like they did before the pandemic.

Also it’s worth noting that the vaccines were already years into development before COVID hit. We knew there was a risk of a Coronavirus outbreak (by virtue of the fact that we had dodged two Coronavirus pandemics a decade earlier). Granted the increased funding and urgency of COVID helped speed things along; but they weren’t exactly starting from scratch.

So it’s still not really clear how we would cope with a more dramatic or unknown situation.

What I did learn about the pandemic was normal folk will completely disregard their own safety just to stick a middle finger to the government. Which is not only concerning for the future survival of our species but also a direct contradiction to your point about civilisation banding together.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by polotics on Saturday May 21, 2022 @07:53AM (#31457090)
Second order effects from global warming striking in synchrony with resource depletion and biodiversity drop looks pretty consumption -civilization destroying to me. Definitely 10 Billion humans don't have a happy life in 2100. Then again if you ask a 4th Century AD farmer about the Roman Empire they would probably give you a shrug.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by towaway15463 on Saturday May 21, 2022 @09:32AM (#31457733)
They’d probably say “as long as they don’t debase the denarius we should be ok” good thing we learned that lesson.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by emj on Saturday May 21, 2022 @06:10AM (#31456652)
I feel a bit hopefull because globally we really did try to get Covid right, most people tried in their own ways. That goes for all parts of the political spectrum. That of course led to conflicts and group think, which is the part that will destroy us. The issue with global warming is not the temprature, it's how we will all be affected and how we act because of that. History says we can not handle external stress, civilizations fall easily. Yes we are global now, that will mean a global civilisation destroying.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by __alexs on Saturday May 21, 2022 @04:09AM (#31456169)
Where I'm from we call that the Total Perspective Vortex.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by Jedd on Saturday May 21, 2022 @10:29AM (#31458226)
Well, yes - anatomically (and to a large degree, intellectually) we're probably indistinguishable from homo sapiens of 300k years ago.

In Yuval Noah Harari's book 'Sapiens - a Brief History of Humankind' he posits that there was a 'cognitive revolution' about 70k years ago, during which our cognitive & language capabilities moved beyond the purely physical observations, to the more abstract & metaphysical.

This allowed for a shedload of cultural changes -- larger societies, the birth of religions / mythologies, money, etc. All those abstract concepts that work when we all agree they exist even if they actually don't.

To your question - yes, we necessarily only have written history from civilisations that wrote things down (and those things survived), but it seems like there was an evolutionary change that meant we could finally leverage our one distinctly useful skill, coordinating large groups of people at scale, by getting us all to adopt a shared reality that didn't exist yet. (This kind of explains why we adopted agriculture, despite it clearly being a bad idea at the time.)

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by dr_dshiv on Saturday May 21, 2022 @06:48AM (#31456800)
Here are some conversational talking points:

“Another unnerving oddity is the curious number of carvings which show people with six fingers. Is this symbolic, or an actual deformity? Perhaps the mark of a strange tribe? Again, there are more questions than answers. Crucially, however, we do now have tentative hints as to the actual religion of these people.

In Gobekli Tepe several skulls have been recovered. They are deliberately defleshed, and carefully pierced with holes so they could – supposedly – be hung and displayed.

Skull cults are not unknown in ancient Anatolia. If there was such a cult in the Tas Tepeler it might explain the graven vultures pictured ‘playing’ with human heads. As to how the skulls were obtained, they might have come from conflict (though there is no evidence of this yet), it is quite possible the skulls were obtained via human sacrifice. At a nearby, slightly younger site, the Skull Building of Cayonu, we know of altars drenched with human blood, probably from gory sacrifice.”

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by Balgair on Saturday May 21, 2022 @10:24AM (#31458188)
> If there was such a cult in the Tas Tepeler it might explain the graven vultures pictured ‘playing’ with human heads.

Sorry to jump in half way and mostly uninformed, but maybe that's an early form of sky burial? Burial by carrion birds is still practiced today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_burial

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by kqr on Saturday May 21, 2022 @07:09AM (#31456890)
The prevalence of human sacrifice throughout history baffles me. I know it's just my cultural heritage to see humans as unique individuals with brains full of original ideas, but it still shocks me every time I hear it that someone would willingly, without being threatened, extinguish a human life.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by dr_dshiv on Saturday May 21, 2022 @07:54AM (#31457095)
It would be mind blowing to watch and many were watching. Big theoretical benefits for social cohesion for culturally disparate people. Whole is greater than the parts.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by staticman2 on Saturday May 21, 2022 @07:39AM (#31457024)
They might have believed in the afterlife, so from their point of view they weren't really extinguishing anything, just converting it from flesh to spirit.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by kqr on Saturday May 21, 2022 @11:19AM (#31458641)
There are two reasons I doubt this:

(a) is such a belief really compatible with what we think is the selective force of evolution, i.e. stay alive long enough to make sure your children have children? In other words, is this something people truly feel when it comes down to it, or is it just a story they tell each other in low-stakes situations? and

(b) even if I believed in this, that's orthogonal to my belief that every human has a valuable role to play in this, current-life society!

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by staticman2 on Monday May 23, 2022 @09:11AM (#31478552)
Evolution doesn't suggest everyone reproduces or "stays around long enough to make sure your children have children" . In World War 2 for example lots of 18 year old men for example were drafted and sacrificed their lives without having a chance to reproduce. Taking your thought experiment to it's conclusion you might conclude world War 2 couldn't have happened.

Your argument about selective pressure would by the same logic lead one to conclude chaste nuns can't exist and monestaries and vows of celebacy are fiction.

Religious belief just needs to be useful on average for there to be selective pressure.

Also evolutionary psychologists can't really explain the existence of gay people (attempts to do so have been a stretch, according to the evolutionary psychiatrist author of The Moral Animal) which demonstrates the limits of declaring things are impossible due to thought experiments about evolutionary pressure.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by ellopoppit on Saturday May 21, 2022 @04:47PM (#31461627)
>i.e. stay alive long enough to make sure your children have children? In other words, is this something people truly feel when it comes down to it

The Aztecs sacrificed an estimated tens of thousands of people a year, because they believed it would postpone the next apocalypse in which everyone would die

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by kqr on Sunday May 22, 2022 @04:37AM (#31466110)
But do we think this was a belief shared by everyone until their deaths, even the people who were sacrificed? Or was it a belief primarily instituted by people who thought they, themselves, would never be sacrificed?
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by gammabetadelta on Saturday May 21, 2022 @07:32AM (#31456984)
we aint nothing but mammals

incentives drives us

overpopulation was controlled by sacrifice and infanticide

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by kqr on Saturday May 21, 2022 @07:37AM (#31457012)
I don't buy this whole "overpopulation" thing people keep talking about in more or less appropriate concepts.

Through virtually all of history, there's a strong correlation between "more people" and "better living conditions".

We are a social species. We're practically made to effectively make use of as many of us as possible to preserve ourselves.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by pid-1 on Saturday May 21, 2022 @08:16AM (#31457203)
> Through virtually all of history, there's a strong correlation between "more people" and "better living conditions".

That's survivorship bias. Populations always try to grow, not to shrink. However, growth will only occur when possible (due new technologies or more resources being available).

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by relaxing on Saturday May 21, 2022 @07:58AM (#31457121)
Broadly true, but shorter periods of food deficit leading to decline in population are still possible.

The last agricultural famine in England was only in the 17th century.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by towaway15463 on Saturday May 21, 2022 @09:36AM (#31457766)
You’ve just never lived through a famine.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by medstrom on Saturday May 21, 2022 @07:38AM (#31457020)
More effort into your posts with less dramatic world-view, please.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by towaway15463 on Saturday May 21, 2022 @09:37AM (#31457775)
Maybe the complex was buried after its builders were finally defeated by the peoples they had subjected to ritual sacrifice and cannibalism.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by simonh on Saturday May 21, 2022 @08:24AM (#31457253)
There’s a fascinating hypothesis about the development of recursive reasoning that’s worth a read. Obviously we don’t have access to the actual language and verbal culture of people back then, but it looks like we might be able to map out some of the cognitive functions they had available to them, and correlate that to the development of material culture, including artistic expression.

https://neurosciencenews.com/language-imagination-evolution-...

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by specialist on Saturday May 21, 2022 @10:05AM (#31458034)
Nice. Will read.

One of the many notions from Lingua ex Machina [2001] is the evolution from protolanguage to proper language. From nonrecursive verb-noun clauses to recursive subject-verb-noun clauses.

https://www.amazon.com/Lingua-Machina-Reconciling-Darwin-Cho...

That book had so many intriguing open ended questions, before we had the tech (ability) to verify stuff. IIRC, others were:

the way the neocortex is organized into hexagonal columns, which I think is what Jeff Hawkins (et al) is working on;

how notions compete inside our head using Darwinian processes;

how thinking (consciousness) may be like resonance across our brains, like a song.

Thanks again for the link. Am noob, so just barely grasp this stuff, but am excited nonetheless to learn about more recent findings.

We live in an age of miracles.

--

Summary copypasta from Amazon:

A neuroscientist and a linguist show how evolution could have given rise to structured language.

A machine for language? Certainly, say the neurophysiologists, busy studying the language specializations of the human brain and trying to identify their evolutionary antecedents. Linguists such as Noam Chomsky talk about machinelike "modules" in the brain for syntax, arguing that language is more an instinct (a complex behavior triggered by simple environmental stimuli) than an acquired skill like riding a bicycle.

But structured language presents the same evolutionary problems as feathered forelimbs for flight: you need a lot of specializations to fly even a little bit. How do you get them, if evolution has no foresight and the intermediate stages do not have intermediate payoffs? Some say that the Darwinian scheme for gradual species self-improvement cannot explain our most valued human capability, the one that sets us so far above the apes, language itself.

William Calvin and Derek Bickerton suggest that other evolutionary developments, not directly related to language, allowed language to evolve in a way that eventually promoted a Chomskian syntax. They compare these intermediate behaviors to the curb-cuts originally intended for wheelchair users. Their usefulness was soon discovered by users of strollers, shopping carts, rollerblades, and so on. The authors argue that reciprocal altruism and ballistic movement planning were "curb-cuts" that indirectly promoted the formation of structured language. Written in the form of a dialogue set in Bellagio, Italy, Lingua ex Machina presents an engaging challenge to those who view the human capacity for language as a winner-take-all war between Chomsky and Darwin.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by Balgair on Saturday May 21, 2022 @10:31AM (#31458238)
> humans existed in anatomically modern form

However, our genetic form may have been very different. It seems that lactase persistence[0] was not wide spread in nearly any human population until the domestication of animals.

I know that comes off as a bit pedantic, but sometimes those little genetic variations matter quite a bit. I won't cop to being well read in paleogenetics, but I have a feeling that there's been a lot of evolution between them and us.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by philipov on Saturday May 21, 2022 @09:43AM (#31457828)
Civilization is usually defined as more than just the development of permanent settlements. Permanent settlements existed in the fertile crescent during the neolithic for thousands of years before civilizations emerged in that region during the early bronze age.

What characterizes civilizations is the emergence of stratified societies in those settlements, with specialized classes of people such as priests and metalworkers, who relied on others to provide them with food.

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by WHA8m on Saturday May 21, 2022 @05:06AM (#31456405)
I only recently have heard about the 'stoned ape theory'. It basically plays with the idea, that drugs (in this case mushrooms) must have played a crucial role in the development of thinking, thought and consciousness (as we humans know it).

https://www.inverse.com/article/34186-stoned-ape-hypothesis

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by dieselgate on Saturday May 21, 2022 @03:43AM (#31456055)
Yeah it’s interesting to think about humanity living without any “permanent” settlements and what the conversations were like..

_pass the salt_

Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by uwagar on Saturday May 21, 2022 @07:35AM (#31457002)
writing is not all that important. oral transmission is effective when the immediate community is just a huddle.
Re:Ancient civilisation under eastern Turkey estimated to be... by EnKopVand on Saturday May 21, 2022 @08:02AM (#31457139)
Sapiens by yuval noah harari deal with a lot of the things you’re pondering.