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Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by malfist on Thursday May 12, 2022 @10:00AM (#31354318)
Why do you think you know more about astronomy than a team of scientists publishing peer reviewed information?
Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by fasteddie31003 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @10:05AM (#31354392)
Peer reviewed has nothing to do with the scientific method. It is just a layer of scientific bureaucracy. Just give me a calibration image of another celestial body and I'll be happy.
Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by zenmaster10665 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @11:07AM (#31355283)
this guy astronomies.
Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by malfist on Thursday May 12, 2022 @12:16PM (#31356249)
You realize peer review isn't just something you do and they automatically publish you, right? Peer review makes sure your science is sound.

But I'm sure you're more of an expert than anybody serving in a peer review board.

Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by snowwrestler on Thursday May 12, 2022 @01:58PM (#31357709)
Peers review the paper. The purpose of peer review is to ensure that the paper clearly communicates the work of the authors.

In the process of doing so, questions and clarifications may better reveal problems with the underlying science itself, which can result in the paper being withdrawn or declined. But peers don’t independently validate results.

At the same time it should be noted that published criticism has to meet the same bar. “You didn’t do the experiment the way I would have” is not really strong criticism. Experiments or observations can always be done better; this is a central ethos of science.

The strongest criticism is usually to conduct one’s own experiment the way one wants, and then show that it produced better results.

Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by fasteddie31003 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @12:22PM (#31356312)
Peer review has let plenty of bad science through. Don't burn me at the stake because I speak heresy against the holy theologians of astronomy.
Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by malfist on Thursday May 12, 2022 @01:19PM (#31357049)
All you're saying is: They're wrong, not gonna say how, but trust me.

Why should I trust you that you know more about astronomy than a team of astronomers and a peer review board?

I've asked you this three times so far and you've not given an answer.

Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by oldgradstudent on Thursday May 12, 2022 @05:34PM (#31360378)
You might try publishing that comment as a dialog, but try not to ridicule the Pope's position too harshly, though. It didn't end up well for Galileo.
Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by DiogenesKynikos on Thursday May 12, 2022 @01:04PM (#31356823)
Bad papers do get through, but anything as high-profile as the first image of the supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way will get intense scrutiny.
Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by JacobThreeThree on Thursday May 12, 2022 @01:21PM (#31357086)
>Peer review makes sure your science is sound

No it doesn't. Most peer review doesn't even attempt to reproduce results, which is the real way to make sure the science is sound.

Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by pfortuny on Thursday May 12, 2022 @04:04PM (#31359531)
You’re being downvoted for saying exactly what happens in the biological, economical and social sciences… Unbelievable.
Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by OrderlyTiamat on Thursday May 12, 2022 @05:33PM (#31360374)
I'd just like to disentangle criticisms of the practice of peer review from whether this commenter is an expert or not. The former is valid or invalid irrespective of the latter.
Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by JonShartwell on Thursday May 12, 2022 @12:52PM (#31356669)
It’s absolutely in the spirit of science to question an experiment’s methods and results. If you disagree with the criticism then present some evidence. An appeal to authority is pretty unconvincing considering scientists have been confidently wrong about quite a lot in the past.
Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by snowwrestler on Thursday May 12, 2022 @01:50PM (#31357594)
Criticism must bring substance as well. Sure, anyone can sit back and say “I don’t believe this, prove it better.” But without specific claims, such criticism can’t ever be answered and the conversation is not constructive or particularly scientific.

One constructive approach to criticism here would be to take the documented imaging process and apply it to other data. If it produces results that don’t match existing evidence, that would be evidence it is flawed.

Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by JonShartwell on Thursday May 12, 2022 @02:13PM (#31357954)
I don’t know, the criticism in OP seems pretty substantive to me. I don’t know much about this subject so I can’t really weigh in on how much the post makes sense but regardless appeal to authority is essentially the opposite of modern science. That’s why nullius in verba has been a motto of science for 300+ years.

On that point, scientists don’t need you to chastise people for questioning their authority online. I think a lot of them would be offended at the idea that you think that is what they want.

Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by panda-giddiness on Friday May 13, 2022 @12:09AM (#31363219)
> I don’t know, the criticism in OP seems pretty substantive to me.

That's because it's a straw man argument. As has been stated elsewhere in this thread, the OP's concerns are addressed in the actual papers, which the OP conveniently ignores.

> appeal to authority is essentially the opposite of modern science.

Well, it's a good thing they're not doing that then. An appeal to authority is when you rely on an expert's prominence in one field to justify their opinions in an unrelated domain, e.g. putting credence in a software developer's pontifications on imaging black holes just because they're good at software. "Appeal to authority" doesn't apply to actual authorities in their domain – otherwise you would never be able to call expert witness at a trial, for example.

Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by thaway321 on Friday May 13, 2022 @03:32AM (#31364462)
>"Appeal to authority" doesn't apply to actual authorities in their domain – otherwise you would never be able to call expert witness at a trial, for example.

Not OP but I disagree, an appeal to authority can be any authority, even those that are experts in the field. Even the most knowledgeable experts make mistakes, so appealing only to authority is not enough, granted I haven't read the paper nor have any stake in this issue, so it's possible that when the op appealed to authority they were actually trying to appeal to the arguments presented in the paper by proxy, which is fine. But a bald appeal to authority is always flawed, and expert witnesses are just a concession the law has to make to get anywhere. In the words of Richard Feynman; "Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts".

Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by panda-giddiness on Friday May 13, 2022 @08:33AM (#31366713)
> expert witnesses are just a concession the law has to make to get anywhere.

I'm not sure why you don't think that applies here? Only a slim fraction of the population is knowledgeable enough to grok the methodology of EHT.

I mean, if an appeal to authority were as you defined it, then engineers would be making an appeal to authority when they invoke Newton's laws (after all, they haven't derived them), biologists would be making an appeal to authority when they write python code (after all, they didn't write the python compiler), and so forth. Trusting that specialists can do their jobs isn't a logical fallacy – it's a type of inductive reasoning and, critically, a type of reasoning essential for the modern world to function.

Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by fesoliveira on Thursday May 12, 2022 @05:12PM (#31360170)
>I don’t know much about this subject so I can’t really weigh in on how much the post makes sense but [...]

Then how can you say the criticism seems substantive? He brings nothing to the table to show that his criticism is valid, it's basically "I don't like, therefore wrong". The proper way criticize their paper would be conduct your own experiments using their parameters and methodologies and show that the results you obtain do not match theoretical results or results of other observations through other means.

>On that point, scientists don’t need you to chastise people for questioning their authority online. I think a lot of them would be offended at the idea that you think that is what they want.

We question their authority on this specific subject they seem to be criticizing. If you make a claim without having at least the background to support said claim, what value does it have? It's the same as a person without background in microbiology or virology claiming vaccines don't work when they don't even begin to understand the science behind it and the mountain of evidence that says otherwise.

Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by pfortuny on Thursday May 12, 2022 @04:02PM (#31359516)
Sorry but as this is a press conI doubt the thing has really passed “peer review” properly speaking.

There was some hype about: FTL events, life based on cyanide not phosphorus…

Careful with “peer review” when the set of peers is invested in the same type of results.

Re:Astronomers reveal first image of the black hole at the h... by wumpus on Thursday May 12, 2022 @05:06PM (#31360123)
We published 10 papers today.