News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by BoiledCabbage on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:40PM (#31320810)
> - Covid stimulus going to people who didn't need it

From the stimulus the worst of the offenses by far happend in the PPP for small business. It was absoutely shameful.

While there was of course waste in the direct treasury payments to citizens, they get way overrepresented compared to what happened in the PPP. It's the same human nature of: If a big company gets 100M of our taxes for no reason, people grumble a bit, but if their next door neighboor gets an extra $100 and they don't, you never hear the end of it.

The PPP was rife with waste, but by design you'll hear way more media and people complain about the co-worker they know of or cousin that spent $1000 on trading cards.

Edit: And skipping my rant that it was by design that the PPP had no transparency and the adminstration fired the inspectors general that would oversee the program for waste to avoid transparency.

Edit: And to be clear it's fine to have untargeted stimulus for people to cover day to day expenses, and also fine to have loans to businesses to keep things afloat. But to intentionally do so with blocking transparency, and removing oversite officials is just creating a cesspool for waste.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by nouveaux on Monday May 09, 2022 @07:55PM (#31321500)
This and the arm chair government spending police in this thread is completely wrong. The PPP helped a ton of small businesses who needed it. I, along with many small business owners in our industry got PPP, used it correctly on employee payroll, rent and utilities. It took me all of 30 min to apply for each of the PPP rounds. It took me about the same amount of time to apply for forgiveness.

Of course there were problems with the wrong people getting their hands on the money. If you actually put up a ton of filters to make sure the wrong people didn't get the money, it would have delayed the actual people needing money from getting it. The right thing to do is to hand out the money fast and go after the abusers later.

These comments are the reason why the small guys always gets the short end of the stick. The big companies have their army of people to solve problems. The small guys are the ones who need it fast without the bureaucracy. Comments like "too much waste" and "shameful" do not hurt the big companies one bit. They just put up another road block for the small guys.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by zapataband1 on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @12:34AM (#31323478)
The wrong people getting the money is exactly what people are criticizing. I think you just disagree on the ways of preventing it.

Chicago used 60% (300million) of relief funds on police personnel costs, it's not just the business aspect that was fucked: https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/02/18/chicago-used-60-of-d...

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by Thorrez on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @03:23AM (#31324463)
Is that PPP?
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by fundad on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:56AM (#31326522)
It had an impact on keeping paychecks going to people, cops can buy meme stocks.

So can arms dealers. We’re worsening inflation by flooding military contractors with money too.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by Thorrez on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @12:22AM (#31335819)
Hmm, I thought the thread was about how well or badly PPP was organized. If other stimulus measures, or defense spending was badly managed, that doesn't really mean that PPP was badly managed.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by boeingUH60 on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @04:29AM (#31324805)
> The right thing to do is to hand out the money fast and go after the abusers later.

In my opinion, this is not a winning strategy. It takes magnitudes more efforts to go after criminals and recover misappropriated money than to prevent the crime in the first place.

P.S.; I'm not an American, so I don't think I have much say in judging how you guys spend your taxes, anyway.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by actually_a_dog on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @04:40AM (#31324865)
This isn't something being advocated as a general strategy. This is an emergency relief strategy, and it makes sense in that context.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by banannaise on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @10:06AM (#31327281)
It also takes magnitudes more efforts to means-test than to simply distribute resources equally, yet here we are.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by mschuster91 on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @04:44AM (#31324889)
In a crisis - and covid was one that came about as fast as war to Ukraine - the thing that matters most is speed.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by MomoXenosaga on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @09:01AM (#31326573)
Yep I remember how everyone thought COVID would lead to a depression.

Honestly who cares if a bunch of gambling addicts and dumb kids lost money on GME or Luna? The real economy is safe for now.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by Sebb767 on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @12:17PM (#31328892)
> Yep I remember how everyone thought COVID would lead to a depression.

I don't think we are in the clear already. Just take a look at the markets right now.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by fullstop on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:02AM (#31326046)
I went through some of the PPP records and found some seemingly fraudulent things, like a youth baseball club receiving an absurd amount of money.

Was it poor record keeping or was it fraud? Companies sprang up just in time to receive loans, including a bunch in California named things like "88 Cloud Computing". All of the names in this case had 88 in them, which is often code for neo-nazi crap (88->HH->Heil Hitler).

It helped those who needed it, sure, but the deliberate sabotage of record keeping and oversight seems intentional.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by 55555 on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:30AM (#31326266)
Sequential 8s are also lucky in Chinese.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by fullstop on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:32AM (#31326289)
The person who filed the paperwork for these companies had an Asian surname, so this is far more likely.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by md_ on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:55AM (#31326506)
https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/lebnitz-tran-san-j...

Those four companies - 88 Cloud Computing LLC, 88 Enterprise Services LLC, 88 Investment Empire LLC and 88 Venture Capital LLC - each received between $350,000 and $1 million in loans within the span of a week in June 2020. The four companies purportedly provide cloud computing and investment services and two of them listed 24 employees each; however the address of all four businesses is a home in an affluent South Bay suburb.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by fullstop on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @09:00AM (#31326559)
It sure feels like the "business owner" fleeced the USA out of a few million dollars.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by ac29 on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @12:35PM (#31329106)
That particular one was arrested and is facing hundreds of years of prison sentences (multiple counts of fraud, etc).
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by mdoms on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:00PM (#31321550)
No one had said stimulus wasn't needed. It's perfectly valid to believe that PPP was bad policy and also that a targeted stimulus was necessary.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by runnerup on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:53PM (#31320939)
The purpose of the “stimulus” funds wasn’t to give what was needed to the people who needed it. The purpose was to smooth out the economic whiplash. We knew there would be an enormous temporary dip in demand, but that structurally (long term) we’d still need all our businesses and couldn’t really afford for them to go bankrupt.

The money was supposed to be given to those who could spend it, to help keep all our small/medium/large businesses as healthy as possible.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by BoiledCabbage on Monday May 09, 2022 @07:15PM (#31321127)
> The purpose of the “stimulus” funds wasn’t to give what was needed to the people who needed it.

Agreed, and providing direct payments to people who are working to put together food or pay their rent makes perfect sense to me. The potential disasters we would have seen if we hadn't done that would've been horrible.

And providing loans to small businesses so they can keep functioning also makes sense. But firing the inspectors who are supposed to oversee the small business loans (as they always have done), blocking pushes for basic transparency of even what businesses receive the loans, and then "forgiving" 97% of all loans as a gift from the govt is beyond wildly irresponsible.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by namecheapTA on Monday May 09, 2022 @07:53PM (#31321477)
I basically operate within small to medium size business as sales in California. Every business owner I know took/got so much PPP money they flat out feel guilty but at the same time all they did was take what was being offered. It's probably the most internally rage inducing thing I've ever heard of, but Im so used to faking agreement to keep the sales relationship alive I basically can block it out. Money is sales feels like fake money anyway so I can cope. But I think if any hard working people really found out what happened they'd almost go French revolution on government.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by ryandvm on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:29PM (#31321796)
Not taking PPP money that your business is eligible for is akin to paying more taxes than you're required. Maybe it's honorable in some strange way, but it's certainly not rational.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by somethoughts on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:38PM (#31321867)
In my humble opinion - this is a great insight on both paying your fair share and not taking PPP/social security/unemployment even if you technically can but don't actually need it. It should be lauded more even though it probably will never be.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by pessimizer on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:44PM (#31322391)
I don't know why we would have debates on whether we should "laud" things or not. How about regulating things, rather than having debates about who or what should be praised? Companies aren't dogs or children. I personally get very little from either the praise or condemnation of anonymous strangers.

Not really directed at you, I'm just sick of the idea that if we all get together and declare things good or bad, that's some sort of accomplishment. People who do well do well through ignoring the irrelevant and immaterial comments of busybodies and bikeshedders.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by WastingMyTime89 on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:42PM (#31322811)
Moral exists and you can aim for a virtuous life in an Aristotelian way and are free to think people who strive for that should be admired. I am at this point in my life of an opinion opposite to yours. What people do is not neutral and people who abuse system or knowingly profit from harmful systems have a negative impact on our society as a whole and it is legitimate to see their actions as bad.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by xvector on Monday May 09, 2022 @11:27PM (#31323096)
I'm struggling with this personally as I decide whether or not to work for unethical companies in exchange for life-changing compensation.

Overall I think my suffering-footprint is tiny compared to most so maybe I'm okay with being a bit more unethical in some areas of my life. But I'm unsure.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by somethoughts on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @01:25PM (#31329753)
Agree - ideally it would be better if everyone just did their own thing and was valued by society for their contribution.

The comment is much more as a counterpoint to the existing dogma of valuing an individual's contribution to society primarily based on ability to amass capital (i.e. splashy magazine covers based on net worth - which often translates to percentage ownership of a company valued on the price paid by the last marginal buyer).

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by alliao on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:09PM (#31322575)
there's nothing fair, gov policies are created to stimulate economy, and that literally means people should go get it and spend it. stashing it in overseas safe haven is less ideal than say spend it all
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by bbarn on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @04:39AM (#31324859)
At the time, it also wouldn't have been wise because none of us had any clue what was going to happen long term. If you'd taken that money, paid your short term shortages with it, and held on to your reserves you could have been spending instead, you'd be in a better position later if things kept going badly.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by Melting_Harps on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @02:08AM (#31323988)
> But I think if any hard working people really found out what happened they'd almost go French revolution on government.

I can't speak for everyone, but I have simply decided to opt-out wherever possible; I'm not going to fight against a system that has moated itself out of obsolescence. If startup culture has taught me anything it's been to learn when to expend your energy matters more than you may think as it compounds over time. If you're constantly deluding yourself there is reform in a system that is designed to be this way, you'll be in incapable of creating viable alternatives.

I had qualms about how poor the US education system--I went to both private and public schools--when I was student, I couldn't fathom just how much we spent and how poor the results were in almost all facets until I realized that this was exactly what it was intended to be: a bloated bureaucratic system designed to siphon funds from the pubic coffers into private hands and enrich an administrative class who seem content with throwing out what they feel impedes them meeting their easily manipulated metrics.

With that said, I still think the airline bailout was the real takeaway of how this whole debacle was managed [0] in the US. It's the typical Socialism for the rich, ruthless Capitalism for the poor playing out all over again as we saw in 2008. Failing up happened, and the stock market and housing market rallied in the midst of mass unemployment and re-opening problems for small businesses etc... this is all make-believe, and it has been for most of my Life, too. It would be almost laughable, in a jaded George Carlin way, if it didn't have such dire consequences: homelessness, and over-dose death due to substance abuse is a pandemic itself.

Personally speaking, after having done sales for my fintech startup, I learned to do the same: but I'm realizing just how internally jaded it has made me about most things in Life. It has a spill-over effect that didn't really dawn me until much later in Life long after I left tech for a while, and returned to culinary whose work force is mainly the 'working poor' who constantly get screwed over. I've helped several of my friends get over the worst situation, and I'm glad they are mostly doing better, but it isn't by much after inflation and perpetual rent hikes.

0: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54381496

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by agumonkey on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @03:19AM (#31324441)
Is there any notion of a fast in economics
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by KSteffensen on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @01:32AM (#31323789)
The purpose of the stimulus check was for Donald Trump to put his name on a check to a bunch of voters.

The extent to which it happened to help out people in need or "the economy" was secondary.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by harambae on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @09:28AM (#31326868)
But those stimulus checks was a tiny part of the overall stimulus, which included PPP "loans" (that are widely forgiven)
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by krnlpnc on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @09:22AM (#31326797)
Yup, instead of providing a reasonable recurring "stimulus" income directly (along with suspending rent/loans) during the emergency, PPP loans funneled massive amounts of money into "business owners" pockets.

The loans were meant to be used for payroll but the process was so opaque and full of loopholes that business owners could simply play a shell game and keep the funds, or some people even created businesses to receive it.

What irritates me is that this is another instance the heavily flawed "trickle down" concept. Companies time and time again act against the best interest of individuals. PPP only further enriched a small subset of business owners at the expense of individual taxpayers.

A clear wink-and-a-handshake "deal" to funnel huge amounts of government money into corporations with minimal oversight.

If the money had gone directly to people instead, it could have been spent as normal, and that would have done more to help local SMALL businesses stay afloat. Plus the business owners who had to close for lockdowns would have been receiving regular benefits too and rent/loans should have been suspended.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by ganoushoreilly on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:55PM (#31320959)
A startup I worked with that raised 20+ million in late 2019 filed for ppp and got 600k+. They didn’t need it but all they had to do was say Covid had impacted them, when truth be told it impacted all of us. It was a waste of tax payer dollars. I just hope the businesses that truly needed it were able to get it.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by skrtskrt on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:59PM (#31320992)
the local immigrant mom and pop shops that needed it I'm sure had a hell of a time navigating the paperwork, not to mention trusting the government and banking system to take care of forgiving the loan when all the conditions were met.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by rossdavidh on Monday May 09, 2022 @07:07PM (#31321070)
My wife's small store (two owners, no employees) was unable to figure out the PPP paperwork, threw up their hands and said 'screw it' and just got on with figuring out how to reopen. I think the smaller the business, and the more they depended on that business to pay the bills, the less likely they had the time and resources to navigate the paperwork.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by chii on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:09PM (#31321618)
The funny (or sad) thing is, "small" firms that are hedge funds also managed to apply and because they often have tax accountants on retainer, they had an easy time doing the paperwork!
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by davidandgoliath on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:24PM (#31321754)
What paperwork? All PPP requested was w-2 data and rent/payroll information. If you run a legal business, you have these things on hand constantly.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by rossdavidh on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:19PM (#31322210)
My wife and business partner had no payroll, because they do things themselves. Some people were telling her she could still get PPP, but it was not possible to get an informed bank human on the line to ask about it, and then all the money was gone and she moved on.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by dboreham on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @12:10AM (#31323365)
If this was the very first round of ppp, I believe that banks got up to speed after a few weeks, and more money was found, so the situation improved considerably.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by brazzledazzle on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:40PM (#31321890)
You might be surprised how much money is made and exchanged under the table which makes negotiating these things precarious for some businesses. The negative economic impacts when these businesses die are still felt regardless of if they cheat on their taxes.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by acchow on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:52PM (#31321980)
I think we're discovering now that all that was needed is Photoshop
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by mig_ on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:06PM (#31322552)
A counter example, my neighbor owns a small drycleaning business and was able to navigate the paperwork. He has a long-time relationship with a particular local bank and I think someone there helped him navigate.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by dboreham on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @12:12AM (#31323376)
>not to mention trusting the government and banking system to take care of forgiving the loan when all the conditions were met

This concern could have been allayed by keeping the funds in a bank account until certain of forgiveness. Absent said forgiveness one repays the loan using the retained funds.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by heartbreak on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:20AM (#31326184)
This assumes that the funds were not needed in the first place.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by seesaw on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:48PM (#31321944)
$4.2 trillion was the total stimulus spent. I find it hard to imagine the scale of this spending, with nothing to show for it. No new infrastructure was built, and we still seem to be staring at the beginning of a recession.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by bogomipz on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @12:47AM (#31323558)
That's an interesting and sobering thought. It basically bought two years of breathing room but also delivered the Fed a very tricky puzzle that they need to solve now. And solving that puzzle without causing a recession later this year is going to be very difficult.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by diffeomorphism on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @01:24AM (#31323757)
> ... nothing to show for it.

> still seem to be staring at the beginning...

Isn't that the whole point of preventative measures?

"not nothing": could have used less money.

Relatedly, getting a recession now does not at all mean these measures were not successful or that this recession is at all similar to the one that was prevented.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by gowld on Monday May 09, 2022 @07:10PM (#31321086)
the funds were limited so only the wealthiest banking clients made the cut. PPP was a perk for people with premium business bank accounts.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by TedDoesntTalk on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @12:16AM (#31323395)
There were reports of that for the first round, especially from mega banks like Wells Fargo.

But not all lenders were banks. My company got its two PPP loans through ReadyCapital. My company had zero previous relationship with them.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by pm90 on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:53PM (#31320937)
If it kept businesses alive it was probably worth it. Small businesses take a long time to establish themselves but can be snuffed out pretty quickly. Many of my friends with such businesses barely made it and the PPP loans were crucial in getting them through the pandemic.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by idiotsecant on Monday May 09, 2022 @07:19PM (#31321167)
No, the worst by orders of magnitude was the fed QE. It lead to system-breaking levels of wealth transfer.
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by baskethead on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @02:45AM (#31324217)
The PPP was precisely Bernanke's "Dropping money from helicopters" scenario.

I think the fear of a Depression was real, and the government was willing to pull the level on the most outrageous tool they had, which was drop money from the skies into the pockets of people who could spend it.

Of course I think that was wrong, but I know exactly where this came from, and it was a playbook that was broadcasted by Bernanke I believe decades ago to fight a Depression. At least we can all agree that it worked, although a little too well, which is why asset prices have skyrocketed and inflation has gone horribly wrong.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by maigret on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @07:13AM (#31325693)
The action of the FED was clearly faster, heavier and in the end better than the ECB. As a result, the FED was able to increase the interest rates faster. Sure it was not perfect but "good enough".
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by sofixa on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:26AM (#31326235)
> The action of the FED was clearly faster, heavier.. than the ECB

Well of course, the situation was vastly different. First, in most EU countries there were very few people losing their jobs due to various existing or expanded temporary/partial/etc. unemployment schemes which meant that people kept their jobs, but were paid by the local government instead of the business. Second, the ECB didn't have the required authority to do what needed to be done, and it required negotiations between the eurozone members to agree on how to proceed in regards to loans. And third, actions were taken locally at each government level.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by LorenPechtel on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @03:39PM (#31331642)
The problem was that the lack of controls meant it was so easy for the fraudsters to set up situations where they would get the money and not face the repercussions.

We saw the same thing with unemployment--the system got overwhelmed so they quit checking and the result was a lot of identity thieves collected unemployment for workers who weren't actually unemployed. (Of course the real problem is the unemployment system has been deliberately kept dysfunctional because that reduces the amount they have to pay out.)

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by fredgrott on Monday May 09, 2022 @07:19PM (#31321166)
How is a check for a tax credit wasteful?

No really explain that logic as when we give tax credits to business we do not then again use the same screwed up logic

the biggest example, the Trump org tax credit check from early 2000s. in fact now that the IRs know it was base don fraud there still asking for it back.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by gexla on Monday May 09, 2022 @07:15PM (#31321130)
The OP didn't mention PPP.

The PPP was much different than the other forms of stimulus. It either went to employees, or it had to be paid back. The interest on the loan was low though.

I doubt much of PPP funds were being used in the meme trading game.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by idiotsecant on Monday May 09, 2022 @07:18PM (#31321156)
I think if you dig a bit you'll find that PPP was absolutely rife with fraud. The verification was "is this going to employees? Promise?"
Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by brightball on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:44PM (#31321905)
For the initial loan to get it issued quickly, that’s correct.

To have the loan forgiven, you had to submit documents at tax time to verify it or it became a low interest loan that had to be paid back.

PPP was one of the best ideas that came out of locking down the entire country because otherwise a tooooon of people would have been laid off immediately. Instead, even people who couldn’t do any work at all due to lack of child care were able to be paid, maintain insurance and benefits. They had to act so quickly.

Re:Day trader army loses all the money it made in meme-stock... by gexla on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:39PM (#31322365)
I didn't say there was no fraud in the PPP program.

The OP comment didn't mention the PPP specifically as stimulus.

The context of the article, is individuals investing money in meme stocks.

The PPP went to business owners (with the assumption they would pay employees rather than laying them off) and likely wasn't being used for meme stocks.

I was reading through the WSB Reddit sub at the time. There was a lot of chatter there about people using their personal stimulus payments for investing in meme stocks.

I also spent a lot of time on Reddit subs checking chatter on PPP and EIDL. Of the two, my guess is there was a lot more widespread fraud (more people involved, but with smaller disbursements) with the EIDL. The EIDL was giving out 1K per employee (up to 10K) for anyone who claimed they were business owners. That didn't have to be paid back.