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Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by masterof0 on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:49PM (#31319530)
Would this raise the tax rates for NYers?
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by aqme28 on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:52PM (#31319563)
The better question is whether NYers will pay more or less under this plan, not whether that payment is a tax or a premium.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by ffggvv on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:36PM (#31320098)
i think the original question was better
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by tomatotomato37 on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:52PM (#31319565)
Summary says it includes a "payroll assessment, similar to the Medicare tax"
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by endisneigh on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:50PM (#31319533)
It would be shocking if it didn’t
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by ceejayoz on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:51PM (#31319541)
No, it wouldn't.

The European single-payer systems pay half what we do per-capita, factoring in private and public spending in both systems. The US system is wildly cost inefficient.

See the chart at https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm

Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by endisneigh on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:53PM (#31319576)
The amount paid per capita and whether you would pay more taxes are not exclusive things.

I’m not sure why people keep bringing up Europe - the USA is not Europe. For one doctors are paid more in the USA compared to Europe, medicine is more expensive here, more of the R and D originates here, etc

Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by Ekaros on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:58PM (#31319652)
Maybe good question to ask is what makes it more expensive? Is it bloated administration and insurance system? Or is there some fundamental other difference?
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by _-david-_ on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:56PM (#31320328)
One reason is it is expensive to fund the research and testing and so the companies need to recoup that cost. They cannot in Europe and Canada due to price controls which means people in the US offset the cost. The US is basically subsidizing other Western countries.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by nceqs3 on Monday May 09, 2022 @11:46PM (#31323221)
^This guy gets it.

Also, in nearly every parliamentary system the state's ability to quickly invalidate patents by an act of parliament gives them even more leverage in the negotiations with drug companies.

Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by throw0101a on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:38PM (#31320790)
> The amount paid per capita and whether you would pay more taxes are not exclusive things.

You're already paying for health care coverage via monthly/annual premiums and via reduced salaries where your employer's portion is part of the 'total compensation' you get (but doesn't show up in your pay check).

Even if the amount at the end stays exactly the same it may be an improvement because (a) there are no "in network" worries about going to the "wrong" hospital or getting the "wrong" doctor", and (b) it is universal coverage so (i) you may not have to worry about losing your job and losing coverage as well as (ii) you can change jobs and have the same (universal) coverage.

It'd be a deal even if it costs exactly the same.

Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by heavyset_go on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:05PM (#31319733)
A lot of that R&D is already funded with our taxes via the NIH.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by bdzr on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:37PM (#31320782)
A significant portion is not. Clinical trials are unbelievably expensive, see https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/drugs-come-compreh....
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by mypalmike on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:32PM (#31320733)
(actual data which undermines the political rhetoric around this topic)

"Critics of drug price regulation argue that free market pricing strategies and higher prices in the United States are instrumental to innovation. One might therefore expect the United States to be the most innovative given that it is the only country with a predominantly unregulated pharmaceutical market. However, US pharmaceutical innovation appeared to be roughly proportional to its national wealth and prescription drug spending. Our data suggest that the United States is important but not disproportionate in its contribution to pharmaceutical innovation. Interestingly, some countries with direct price control, profit control, or reference drug pricing appeared to innovate proportionally more than their contribution to the global GDP or prescription drug spending."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866602/

Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by rootusrootus on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:52PM (#31319568)
Of course it'll raise tax rates. That money does come from somewhere. The real question is whether employers will raise salaries enough to compensate for the additional taxes, once they're no longer providing insurance as a benefit.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by ceejayoz on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:53PM (#31319575)
If I pay $10 in tax to save me $20 in costs, I'm not inclined to see that as a tax hike.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by rootusrootus on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:56PM (#31319619)
That assumes you get the cost saving. If my company stopped paying for my insurance benefit and instead gave that money to me directly, and then I bought the cheapest plan I could find on the insurance exchange ... I'd be paying more, not less. By a fair amount.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by ceejayoz on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:58PM (#31319656)
That seems readily fixable; make it a legal requirement that companies that provide employer-provided healthcare pay the premium to the employee if they opt out.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by rootusrootus on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:00PM (#31319682)
In my case the premium wouldn't even come close to the marketplace cost. I'd be losing overall.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by ceejayoz on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:04PM (#31319726)
https://www.peoplekeep.com/blog/which-health-insurance-costs...

> Nationally, the analysis found that individual ACA Marketplace premiums are 10 percent lower than the average employer-sponsored insurance premium, after the adjustments.

(Which makes sense; it's a very large risk group.)

Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by rootusrootus on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:28PM (#31320012)
Okay, then congratulate my employer for beating the odds, I guess.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by mypalmike on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:42PM (#31320831)
Numbers, please. This kind of claim is just mythology unless you have numbers to back it up.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by mattmcknight on Monday May 09, 2022 @07:24PM (#31321210)
Is this because your employer is paying part of the cost for the plan?
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by endisneigh on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:55PM (#31319594)
It’s still a tax hike, regardless of your rationalizing
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by ceejayoz on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:55PM (#31319599)
Then a focus on tax rates instead of total cost is entirely disingenuous.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by endisneigh on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:57PM (#31319633)
Not really, there are people who get great health care for free from their employer, and others who get a greatly discounted rate. Their employers will not necessarily savings with their employees.

The result for these employees could be more taxes for the same or worse care they’re already receiving.

In aggregate I believe it’s the right move but let’s not act like everyone wins here.

Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by ceejayoz on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:01PM (#31319686)
> Not really, there are people who get great health care for free from their employer, and others are a greatly discounted rate, who will not necessarily share savings with their employees.

Then require that savings be shared.

Make it a legal requirement that any company that has employer-provided healthcare must rebate employees the premium costs if they opt-out.

Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by endisneigh on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:02PM (#31319709)
That makes no sense, salaries would simply be adjusted to compensate. The kind of bureaucracy you’re proposing is why things are already so complicated to begin with.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by ceejayoz on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:05PM (#31319742)
> That makes no sense, salaries would simply be adjusted to compensate.

If you cut the salaries of employees who opt-out, but not those who don't, you'd be in very clear violation of the law I'm suggesting.

Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by endisneigh on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:09PM (#31319781)
No, what I’m saying is that they wouldn’t offer an alternative to the state run health care, as why would they anymore? No incentive.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by ceejayoz on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:10PM (#31319795)
I'm not seeing the downside.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by endisneigh on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:11PM (#31319808)
The downside is that you could be paying more taxes for something that you already had.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by ceejayoz on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:13PM (#31319829)
Then perhaps it's time to unlink employment and health care coverage entirely.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by endisneigh on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:36PM (#31320768)
No disagreement here.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by DaveExeter on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:05PM (#31320438)
> Not really, there are people who get great health care for free from their employer

It is not 'for free' it is part of your compensation! It's like saying your employer pays 6.2% + 1.45% in SS/Medicaid taxes 'for free'. That is part of your compensation.

Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by endisneigh on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:37PM (#31320776)
I meant free in that you don’t pay a premium, but fair point.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by throw0101a on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:40PM (#31320811)
> It’s still a tax hike, regardless of your rationalizing

You're already paying for health care coverage via monthly/annual premiums and via reduced salaries where your employer's portion is part of the 'total compensation' you get (but doesn't show up in your pay check).

Even if the amount at the end stays exactly the same it may be an improvement because (a) there are no "in network" worries about going to the "wrong" hospital or getting the "wrong" doctor", and (b) it is universal coverage so (i) you may not have to worry about losing your job and losing coverage as well as (ii) you can change jobs and have the same (universal) coverage.

Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by daenz on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:56PM (#31319608)
>The real question is whether employers will raise salaries enough to compensate for the additional taxes, once they're no longer providing insurance as a benefit.

I don't think that's even a question. The answer is no, they won't.

Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by xienze on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:42PM (#31320165)
> The real question is whether employers will raise salaries enough to compensate for the additional taxes, once they're no longer providing insurance as a benefit.

Spoiler: they won’t. They’ll spin not having to pay a premium as a pay raise.

Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by donatj on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:53PM (#31319574)
I think the idea that anything that worked in Europe would work here as well as there without inherent corruption and rent seeking is laughable.
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by ceejayoz on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:00PM (#31319674)
The idea that the US is uniquely corrupt and rent-seek-y seems laughable.

There's no corruption in Italy? Eastern Europe?

[dead]
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by settrans on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:04PM (#31319720)
You and I have different definitions of "billionaire".
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by TMWNN on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:47PM (#31320228)
Consistently having trouble identifying sarcasm in print—without the "help" of idiotic illiterate marks like "/s"—is one of the signs of autism (<http://www.healthcentral.com/autism/c/1443/162610/autism-sar...>).
Re:NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer h... by FinNerd on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:22PM (#31319927)
I had to add a /s, Jesus