News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by leros on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @11:29AM (#31261862)
I used to manage engineers at another large tech company and this was a big problem. There was nowhere near enough big projects to get everyone the evidence they needed for promotions.

As a result we ended up doing two things a lot:

1) over-engineering a feature that should be simple into something with architectural significance (e.g. a new set of services that could have just been a feature in an existing service)

2) de-prioritizing important things that were small in order to ensure everyone had a big project every quarter.

We ended up having to hire contractors to work on the small stuff because it was piling up and causing problems.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by jstanley on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @01:15PM (#31263265)
> There was nowhere near enough big projects to get everyone the evidence they needed for promotions.

Would the goal be to promote everyone? Who's going to do the work they all used to do?

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by leros on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @01:25PM (#31263382)
It's a retention issue. If people don't level up fast enough and get raises they'll leave for another company.
Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by akmr726 on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @06:29PM (#31266689)
This is underlying problem with promotion culture, I am in a big financial firm, my whole team wants to get promoted every 1-1.5 year. I feel people are not really learning how to write and manage software systems properly due to this.
Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by _j5l3 on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @03:51PM (#31264975)
At Google at least, if you stay low level for too long, you get fired. If your team is full of low level people maintaining a project that's stable, you need to invent work to justify your existence.
Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by ceras on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @07:44PM (#31267388)
You only need one promotion, L3 (entry level) to L4 (mid level), to not get fired at Google. And the company is quite generous with how long it gives you to get there. L3 to L4 is basically about writing good code on your own, and isn't really affected by promo culture -- doesn't really need shiny work.

Several years back, you had to also eventually get to L5. This was more affected by promo culture, but was also largely unenforced, which is why they get rid of the formal requirement to get to L5.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by _j5l3 on Thursday May 05, 2022 @05:32PM (#31278641)
> L3 to L4 is basically about writing good code on your own, and isn't really affected by promo culture

I'm unsarcastically glad that you had a different experience at Google than me. This was not my experience, nor the experience of anyone else on my immediate team.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by hn_go_brrrrr on Thursday May 05, 2022 @03:46AM (#31270706)
It was worse than "largely unenforced", it was unevenly enforced, depending on your management chain.
Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by UncleMeat on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @11:58AM (#31262260)
> 1) over-engineering a feature that should be simple into something with architectural significance (e.g. a new set of services that could have just been a feature in an existing service)

Ideally this gets people fired, not promoted. Google explicitly calls out "solutions to hard problems are easy to maintain" on its ladder, for example. People can fail to identify these cases, but the intention is to promote based on hard problems rather than complex solutions.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by xmprt on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @12:57PM (#31263026)
It's all about how you twist it. If you say "I built 2 new services that could have just been a feature in an existing service" then you'll probably get a bad review.

However, if you give a reason for building the 2 new services (eg. more extensibility, enables a new flow, easier to use for other teams) then all of a sudden the complexity is justified and you'll appear to have solved a hard problem. No one is going to look super deeply and ask if those reasons are valid and if you even need the extra extensibility or if other teams will use the service.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by bluGill on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @12:42PM (#31262840)
Do they consider fixing easy bugs are hard problem? Should someone ignore a bug report "The is not spelled teh?" until it has bounced around unsolved for months on end, then spend 2 weeks "investigating" to show that it is a hard bug?

I've seen real bugs that bounce around for months, each time to someone who looks decides it isn't in their code and points to someone else: eventually we tell one engineer to solve it an a few weeks latter she traces it down through many different layers to figure it out. I've seen other cases where a great engineer spent weeks fixing bugs only slightly more complex a misspelling. In the end what counts it the quality of the product not the effort put into it.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by UncleMeat on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @09:22PM (#31268215)
> Do they consider fixing easy bugs are hard problem?

No.

> Should someone ignore a bug report "The is not spelled teh?" until it has bounced around unsolved for months on end, then spend 2 weeks "investigating" to show that it is a hard bug?

No. Grungy work has to get done, but it also won't build a promo case. If a leader isn't finding ways to make sure that the grungy stuff is being completed then they are a failing leader.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by ShamelessC on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @02:45PM (#31264298)
Sorry but shouldn't you have just taken the initiative and fixed the bug yourself? This is the sort of thing I would hope a company would reward - not passing the buck.

If that's "below your pay grade" _and_ you're still capable of doing it, well that's kind of the problem then, isn't it.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by bluGill on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @05:13PM (#31265915)
> Sorry but shouldn't you have just taken the initiative and fixed the bug yourself

Why should I spend a week learning a different domain when someone with experience in that code can possibly fix the bug in an hour? Passing the buck to the right person is the correct answer when you are not an expert and someone else is. Passing the buck too many times happens very rarely, most of the time it is the correct answer, so long as you pass it to the right person.

I can go into anyone's code and fix a misspelling. However if the problem is less obvious someone with experience can take a few days off my time just because they don't have to figure out how the code is supposed to work before figuring out why it doesn't do that.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by joshuamorton on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @12:56PM (#31263012)
No, this wouldn't get someone promoted, because it doesn't actually solve the problem. The problem here is that the triage process is a mess. Fixing that, so that bugs don't bounce around for months, would probably get someone promoted, or at least be a significant factor.
Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by xmprt on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @01:00PM (#31263060)
What if the solution to that hard problem is improving the incentive structure and paying/promoting people for fixing bugs? That's something only ELT or SVPs can do and they aren't getting promoted for that.
Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by joshuamorton on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @03:03PM (#31264511)
If you think the problem can only be solved by management attention, and you cannot demonstrate to your management that the problem is impactful enough that it deserves their attention, either you are incapable of making a clear enough argument to focus on the right problem, or the problem isn't actually as dire as you think it is (or management is bad and wrong, or at the very least mismatches your values).

Two of these are a signal that perhaps you shouldn't be promoted. The third is a signal that you should leave.

In a less generic sense, I think that there are almost always ways to improve incentive structures and encourage people to focus on specific problems that don't directly involve SVPs. Your manager has some control over your rating. If you can argue that "customer happiness" should be a priority and as part of that, end to end bug triage time will impact ratings, you have successfully created an incentive structure that will reward that, without involving anyone who can modify compensation structure.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by bluGill on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @05:15PM (#31265958)
Many outsiders have noted that googles incentive structure is not around customer happiness in general. Thus articles and discussions like this one.
Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by joshuamorton on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @07:04PM (#31267008)
You're mixing two problems.

Is the issue that Google, as a company, is not addressing user happiness enough? Or is the issue that some organization is letting bugs languish? The first is a much harder problem than the second. You don't need to solve the first to fix the second. I stand by my claim that it is feasible to address the first as an L5, that could reasonably get someone promo'd to 6, and you wouldn't need to involve anyone above a director to do it. Of course, doing so would involve writing very little code, because so much of this is procedural and political, so the engineer who just wants to be rewarded for fixing bugs wouldn't take the initiative to solve this problem. But alas.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by meowtimemania on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @12:19PM (#31262543)
I think there just aren’t enough reasonably solvable hard problems. All the low hanging fruit is taken, and the result is artificially complex solutions as a way for engineers to demonstrate craftsmanship.
Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by riku_iki on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @03:53PM (#31264996)
It sounds you had bottleneck in product management pipeline. Product managers should generate enough creative and significant features to justify stream of large projects.
Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by astrange on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @06:06PM (#31266472)
Meanwhile at Apple, there aren't product managers and the business doesn't create an expanding stream of new products.
Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by riku_iki on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @06:26PM (#31266664)
Sorry, can't comment on this, never owned anything from Apple :)