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Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by UncleMeat on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @11:58AM (#31262260)
> 1) over-engineering a feature that should be simple into something with architectural significance (e.g. a new set of services that could have just been a feature in an existing service)

Ideally this gets people fired, not promoted. Google explicitly calls out "solutions to hard problems are easy to maintain" on its ladder, for example. People can fail to identify these cases, but the intention is to promote based on hard problems rather than complex solutions.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by xmprt on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @12:57PM (#31263026)
It's all about how you twist it. If you say "I built 2 new services that could have just been a feature in an existing service" then you'll probably get a bad review.

However, if you give a reason for building the 2 new services (eg. more extensibility, enables a new flow, easier to use for other teams) then all of a sudden the complexity is justified and you'll appear to have solved a hard problem. No one is going to look super deeply and ask if those reasons are valid and if you even need the extra extensibility or if other teams will use the service.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by bluGill on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @12:42PM (#31262840)
Do they consider fixing easy bugs are hard problem? Should someone ignore a bug report "The is not spelled teh?" until it has bounced around unsolved for months on end, then spend 2 weeks "investigating" to show that it is a hard bug?

I've seen real bugs that bounce around for months, each time to someone who looks decides it isn't in their code and points to someone else: eventually we tell one engineer to solve it an a few weeks latter she traces it down through many different layers to figure it out. I've seen other cases where a great engineer spent weeks fixing bugs only slightly more complex a misspelling. In the end what counts it the quality of the product not the effort put into it.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by UncleMeat on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @09:22PM (#31268215)
> Do they consider fixing easy bugs are hard problem?

No.

> Should someone ignore a bug report "The is not spelled teh?" until it has bounced around unsolved for months on end, then spend 2 weeks "investigating" to show that it is a hard bug?

No. Grungy work has to get done, but it also won't build a promo case. If a leader isn't finding ways to make sure that the grungy stuff is being completed then they are a failing leader.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by ShamelessC on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @02:45PM (#31264298)
Sorry but shouldn't you have just taken the initiative and fixed the bug yourself? This is the sort of thing I would hope a company would reward - not passing the buck.

If that's "below your pay grade" _and_ you're still capable of doing it, well that's kind of the problem then, isn't it.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by bluGill on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @05:13PM (#31265915)
> Sorry but shouldn't you have just taken the initiative and fixed the bug yourself

Why should I spend a week learning a different domain when someone with experience in that code can possibly fix the bug in an hour? Passing the buck to the right person is the correct answer when you are not an expert and someone else is. Passing the buck too many times happens very rarely, most of the time it is the correct answer, so long as you pass it to the right person.

I can go into anyone's code and fix a misspelling. However if the problem is less obvious someone with experience can take a few days off my time just because they don't have to figure out how the code is supposed to work before figuring out why it doesn't do that.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by joshuamorton on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @12:56PM (#31263012)
No, this wouldn't get someone promoted, because it doesn't actually solve the problem. The problem here is that the triage process is a mess. Fixing that, so that bugs don't bounce around for months, would probably get someone promoted, or at least be a significant factor.
Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by xmprt on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @01:00PM (#31263060)
What if the solution to that hard problem is improving the incentive structure and paying/promoting people for fixing bugs? That's something only ELT or SVPs can do and they aren't getting promoted for that.
Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by joshuamorton on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @03:03PM (#31264511)
If you think the problem can only be solved by management attention, and you cannot demonstrate to your management that the problem is impactful enough that it deserves their attention, either you are incapable of making a clear enough argument to focus on the right problem, or the problem isn't actually as dire as you think it is (or management is bad and wrong, or at the very least mismatches your values).

Two of these are a signal that perhaps you shouldn't be promoted. The third is a signal that you should leave.

In a less generic sense, I think that there are almost always ways to improve incentive structures and encourage people to focus on specific problems that don't directly involve SVPs. Your manager has some control over your rating. If you can argue that "customer happiness" should be a priority and as part of that, end to end bug triage time will impact ratings, you have successfully created an incentive structure that will reward that, without involving anyone who can modify compensation structure.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by bluGill on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @05:15PM (#31265958)
Many outsiders have noted that googles incentive structure is not around customer happiness in general. Thus articles and discussions like this one.
Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by joshuamorton on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @07:04PM (#31267008)
You're mixing two problems.

Is the issue that Google, as a company, is not addressing user happiness enough? Or is the issue that some organization is letting bugs languish? The first is a much harder problem than the second. You don't need to solve the first to fix the second. I stand by my claim that it is feasible to address the first as an L5, that could reasonably get someone promo'd to 6, and you wouldn't need to involve anyone above a director to do it. Of course, doing so would involve writing very little code, because so much of this is procedural and political, so the engineer who just wants to be rewarded for fixing bugs wouldn't take the initiative to solve this problem. But alas.

Re:The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-or... by meowtimemania on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @12:19PM (#31262543)
I think there just aren’t enough reasonably solvable hard problems. All the low hanging fruit is taken, and the result is artificially complex solutions as a way for engineers to demonstrate craftsmanship.