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Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by jnmandal on Monday May 02, 2022 @04:00PM (#31240125)
Yes, the US is a country that cannot process its own waste so it ships it overseas just to be rid of it. The solution is not to raise money and send it to the Philippines to build landfills. The solution is to actually recycle plastic, build circular supply chains, and use biodegradable materials as much as possible.

If humans are to stay on this planet, in the long term we cannot just keep piling up garbage in landfills and building on top of it. Eventually, in hundreds or thousands of years we will have to remediate that land. Its going to be a lot better if we just make our waste as recyclable as possible in the first place.

The author is recommending a half measure based on the assumption that the US cannot fix its own problems. They are also implying a false equivalency: banning single use plastics is not the same as recycling plastic. A more equivalent comparison might be the tradeoffs between plastic bottles for soda, water, or oils and glass or metal containers. It is also true that plastic straws are a much smaller problem then other usages of plastic such as bottles or event fishing gear and even bags.

Yet there is nothing inherently wrong with reducing plastic usage. Doing so is smart and will be important for the health and well being of future generations -- human and nonhuman -- of life on earth.

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by Syonyk on Monday May 02, 2022 @05:25PM (#31241148)
> The solution is to actually recycle plastic, build circular supply chains, and use biodegradable materials as much as possible.

This assumes that:

(1) Plastic can actually be recycled. Unlike a lot of other materials, it degrades rather substantially every time you try, and plastic quality coming out of recycling isn't generally uniform enough to make anything more than the big, chunky "recycled plastic toys and benches" you'll occasionally see. More and more, it's evident that "plastic recycling" is a myth mostly funded by plastic producers and crew, who wish to have it be seen as "not the terror it actually is." Hard on profits, you know, if people don't like your product. The Guardian has done some great work on the truths behind plastic recycling, and they're not pretty. That's before you get into the biological impacts of microplastics on "literally everything on the planet that's alive."

And, (2) that "biodegradable materials" actually do that in realistic end of life conditions. They don't. People date landfill digs by reading the headlines on the newspapers that are "slightly yellowed compared to when they were buried."

Treating plastic as the life-toxic sludge it is would be a far better start. At least with metal recycling, we know it's actually being put back into a smelter for recycling, and that it uses far less energy than the original materials (though "pure circular" with most metals is still a problem as they just dilute the various alloys down with virgin metal enough to make the additives not a problem in current systems).

"Oh, it's fine, it's recycled!" leads to far more plastic use than "No, we literally can't do anything with it, the best we can do is go burn it to offset coal use" (which is what my local area does with plastic, as it seems to have the best impact for the least cost, and the burn temperature is probably hot enough to decompose all the nasties...).

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by photochemsyn on Monday May 02, 2022 @07:31PM (#31242497)
Probably the only realistic way to 'recycle' plastic is to follow something like the fungal approach to 'recycling' durable woody materials, i.e. cellolose and lignin - the slowly break them down all the way to CO2, extracting whatever energy is available along the way. This is why we get a late-season pulse of CO2 in the fall, as fungi do their work, in the northern hemisphere. Under normal steady state conditions, growing plants then uptake that released CO2 in the spring, accounting for the sawtooth pattern in the northern hemisphere Keeling Curve.

On the other hand, making plastics from biomass carbon sources or from direct air capture and burying the material in landfills permanently is actually a form of permanent carbon storage.

It's probably just best to reduce plastic use as much as possible.

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by Reason077 on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @07:48AM (#31247154)
> "It's probably just best to reduce plastic use as much as possible."

It's unfortunate that the US still apparently used plastic straws in 2021. Here in the UK they have been phased out over the past few years, with an official ban since October 2020. It seems the same in other European countries from what I've seen.

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by hef19898 on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @03:59AM (#31245842)
Once, a couple of years ago, I had a job at chemical company. They produced additives, stuff you add to, e.g., plastics to improve certain characteristics. One thing they experimented with was additives that helped to break down plastics into molecules you also find naturally. In my best layman's term, below micro-plastics and something that is found in the environment anyway and will just become part of the natural cycle. In tests, they managed to achieve that (based on legal limits for plastics in soil samples, within a year in the ground. meaning, any plastic concentrations dropped below legal limits and detectability. Quite nice. Not sure what happened to that, being a new product it wasn't cheap to produce (yet). Not sure if it was even suitable for most use cases.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by lisper on Monday May 02, 2022 @09:13PM (#31243130)
> slowly break them down all the way to CO2

Sure, let's turn all the plastic into atmospheric CO2. What could go wrong?

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by photochemsyn on Monday May 02, 2022 @10:29PM (#31243742)
Well, at that point, you could use the CO2 to make more plastic rather than releasing it to the atmosphere. My point was, this is how nature recycles biomass every year. Plastics are currently manufactered from natural gas feedstocks; you could make plastic from CO2 just like trees make lignin from C02.

Then, if you buried that plastic (made from atmospheric CO2) in a landfill after use, that would plausibly be removing CO2 from the atmosphere, not adding it. Assuming it doesn't break down in the landfill and leak out as methane or something.

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by lisper on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @02:08AM (#31245215)
But plastics are not made from atmospheric CO2, they are made from fossil hydrocarbons.

That's the whole point: the one saving grace of plastics is that they maintain the sequestration of fossilized CO2. If you let them decompose all the way back to CO2 then you have eliminated that last remaining benefit.

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by Retric on Monday May 02, 2022 @10:27PM (#31243720)
Assuming the plastics started from atmospheric CO2 in the first place, noting.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by lisper on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @02:06AM (#31245205)
But plastics are not made from atmospheric CO2, they are made from fossil hydrocarbons, i.e. from oil.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by Retric on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @07:23AM (#31246980)
Not all plastics are made from fossil fuels, and photochemsyn was suggesting: “making plastics from biomass carbon sources or from direct air capture”
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by lisper on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @11:12AM (#31249297)
That's true, but it misses the point rather badly. A big reason that CO2 is a problem is that it is very stable. Getting it out of the atmosphere at scale requires vast amounts of energy. So if your goal is to reduce the amount of atmospheric CO2 (and if it's not then you've essentially given up on the future of civilization) it is much better not to let the carbon get into the atmosphere in the first place. Carbon in plastic is already sequestered. Dumping it back into the atmosphere is not progress.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by Retric on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @12:37PM (#31250357)
That’s perfectly reasonable in the short term. Long term however we don’t want to endlessly extract CO2 either, so eventually we will want a pure equilibrium state with zero net gain or loss in atmospheric CO2.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by lisper on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @12:43PM (#31250418)
Yes, of course. But I don't see any circumstances under which returning the carbon in plastics to the atmosphere contributes to that goal.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by wildmanx on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @10:24AM (#31248689)
The overwhelming majority is. So much that it's not even worth discussing the rest since it makes it look like it's not all that bad. Yes, it is that bad.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by balaji1 on Monday May 02, 2022 @05:51PM (#31241419)
> You must reduce the amount of plastic shipped overseas by putting it in the regular garbage instead of the recycle bin.

That's the reality. Why does the US/California make it seem like recycling is a magic trick to save the planet?

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by Syonyk on Monday May 02, 2022 @05:57PM (#31241496)
> Why does the US/California make it seem like recycling is a magic trick to save the planet?

Because it's the most profitable step of the Reduce, Reuse, Recycle, [some people add other entries] chain, so it's in their interests to pretend the other steps don't exist.

If I buy a bottle of water packed in plastic and don't worry about it because I assume it's recyclable and therefore "of zero net impact" (also not true, but implied by most of the standard recycling glossy brochures), I've helped their profits.

If I bring my own water with me, or use a water fountain or something, I've not contributed to growing the profits of all the companies in the chain of extracting oil from the ground, processing it into various precursors, making it into a cheap, flimsy plastic, pumping water out of the ground to fill that bottle, trucking it across the roads built of oil with fuel built of oil, and selling it to someone, then also the profits of dealing with the waste plastic (trash, recycling, whatever)!

Reduce (don't buy stuff in the first place) and Reuse (finding ways to have things be not-single-use) just don't have nearly the profit chain.

Pay attention to just how much rhetoric about climate/trash/etc boils down to, "We can consume our way out of problems caused by overconsumption." There are no shortage of companies happy to sell you "green" versions of whatever you might have otherwise bought - but very few people are willing to ask the question, "Should you have bought it in the first place?"

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by osdoorp on Monday May 02, 2022 @06:42PM (#31242051)
"We can consume our way out of problems caused by overconsumption." — well said
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by Eric_WVGG on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @09:43AM (#31248202)
I interpret the grift a little differently.

A lot of the messaging — paid for by the fossil fuels industry — is "we're all in this together." Image of countless families sorting their plastic bottles or whatever.

Don't look around the corner at industry generating a magnitude larger amount of waste. Are you doing your part?

They used messaging to make their problem our problem.

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by lazyier on Monday May 02, 2022 @10:04PM (#31243578)
> That's the reality. Why does the US/California make it seem like recycling is a magic trick to save the planet?

Because propaganda has more impact than the truth.

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by wildmanx on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @10:26AM (#31248725)
1. Profit 2. Shifts blame to the consumer -- if you don't recycle it's you who's bad and destroying the planet 3. Plastic is cheap. Alternatives are more expensive and less convenient. So let's try to fix the symptom instead of the root cause.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by robonerd on Monday May 02, 2022 @05:31PM (#31241208)
Many kinds of plastics can't be recycled at all, not even downcycled. Thermoset plastics particularly, which includes almost everything made out of fiberglass (glass fibers in thermoset plastic matrix.) That stuff either gets thrown into a landfill, or ground up and burnt.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by Syonyk on Monday May 02, 2022 @05:40PM (#31241288)
That most of it burns is part of why "go burn it to offset coal" came out so well in some of the lifecycle analysis for end of life program I'm familiar with:

https://www.hefty.com/sites/default/files/2021-01/Hefty-Ener...

Instead of having to pay to sort and process, you just grind it up and mix it in with the coal (or heave the bags in, I'm not sure as to the actual feed mechanism though I keep meaning to see if I can get a tour).

I'm not actually in the program area, but I know where to drop my bags of plastic to get them into the program (one of the recycling companies in the area of the program handles it, and I'm over there often enough that I'll toss a few of the bags in the back of the car if I'm going that way).

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by tkzed49 on Monday May 02, 2022 @10:19PM (#31243668)
Recycling sucks, but you could replace "biodegradable" with "industrially compostable" or even "ecologically safer". I'm not convinced that getting newspaper out of landfills is on the same order of importance as not littering plastics into the environment. Paper seems like a huge win over plastic and even if you have to use a "biodegradable" plastic, at least it's actually feasible to compost it.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by cortesoft on Monday May 02, 2022 @04:54PM (#31240792)
> If humans are to stay on this planet, in the long term we cannot just keep piling up garbage in landfills and building on top of it. Eventually, in hundreds or thousands of years we will have to remediate that land. Its going to be a lot better if we just make our waste as recyclable as possible in the first place.

Landfill space is not the issue at all. Landfills do not take up that much physical space, and we have plenty of empty space to use.

The issue is around the greenhouse gases released creating all of those disposable products and the resources going into their production.

If it was just landfill space, we would be totally fine.

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by thaumasiotes on Monday May 02, 2022 @05:14PM (#31241002)
Also...

> Eventually, in hundreds or thousands of years we will have to remediate that land.

Over that time scale the land automatically remediates itself. There's a hill in Rome made of a big pile of Roman garbage. The hill is more useful than the pots were.

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by hanniabu on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @01:19AM (#31244931)
In the 60s there was a junk yard that some developer put a bunch of houses on top of near my house. Decades later nearly everyone that lived there developed cancer.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by sacrosancty on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @01:26AM (#31244967)
On that time scale, we can just build elsewhere instead. It's a complete non-issue once we know about the risks.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by dvtrn on Monday May 02, 2022 @05:17PM (#31241039)
Boston as well, iirc. And parts of Chicago (a city that was built ontop of an actual swamp)
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by robonerd on Monday May 02, 2022 @05:25PM (#31241152)
Related; In mid 19th century, Entire neighborhoods of Chicago were lifted up on jackscrews to raise the street above the swamp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_of_Chicago
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by solveit on Monday May 02, 2022 @06:09PM (#31241651)
We were able to lift entire neighbourhoods in the 19th century but now we can't even build houses...
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by WesternEdge on Monday May 02, 2022 @08:17PM (#31242790)
Coastal commission's head would explode if we tried to lift a neighborhood.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by thaumasiotes on Monday May 02, 2022 @06:36PM (#31241980)
We can still build them now. It's a question of whether we're allowed.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by et2o on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @02:08AM (#31245219)
I think that’s exactly what OP meant
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by dvtrn on Monday May 02, 2022 @05:33PM (#31241229)
Yep! I love my city for a lot of reasons but stuff like this are some of my favorite bits of Chicagoland trivia.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by bko on Monday May 02, 2022 @04:54PM (#31240796)
> If humans are to stay on this planet, in the long term we cannot just keep piling up garbage in landfills and building on top of it. Eventually, in hundreds or thousands of years we will have to remediate that land. Its going to be a lot better if we just make our waste as recyclable as possible in the first place.

From the article linked below:

If you took all the trash that the United States would generate in 100 years and piled it up in the shape of the Great Pyramid, it would be about 32 times bigger. So the base of this trash pyramid would be about 4.5 miles by 4.5 miles, and the pyramid would rise almost 3 miles high.

That's a big landfill but its just not true that its unsustainable. That's ignoring all the advancements we'll make over the 100 years to harvest that garbage or further increase efficiency of landfills.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-scienc...

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by tgb on Monday May 02, 2022 @08:07PM (#31242714)
The numbers from that article are just completely wrong. 32x bigger in volume would be just 3.2x the linear dimensions of the Great Pyramid. The volume numbers in the article are actually about 200x the Great Pyramid's volume (per Wikipedia) or a 5.9x scaling in the linear dimensions. That still is less than a mile across at the base. Their numbers would be about 30000x the volume of the Great Pyramid and so is several orders of magnitude off.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by anamax on Monday May 02, 2022 @05:02PM (#31240893)
> So the base of this [100 years] trash pyramid would be about 4.5 miles by 4.5 miles, and the pyramid would rise almost 3 miles high.

> That's a big landfill but its just not true that its unsustainable.

That is NOT a big landfill. That volume could be easily hidden in all but a couple of US states.

Moreover, it is a concentrated supply of many useful materials. It might not be profitable to mine it today, but if the "earth is running out of resources" people are correct, it will be. (And, if they're not, generating trash isn't a problem.)

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by antisthenes on Monday May 02, 2022 @05:21PM (#31241098)
A Landfill would also generate a ton of usable energy in the form of landfill gas, which can either be used for heating, or concentrated/scrubbed and used as an equivalent of natural gas.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by bombcar on Monday May 02, 2022 @05:36PM (#31241251)
> The biggest mining operation on Earth can be found in Germany. At the Garzweiler strip mine they remove the top ground layer to extract lignite. The total mining surface is a staggering 18,5 ml² (48 km²) and several villages had to be moved for the mining operation.

The trash pyramid is 100 cubic kilometers, that could fit in a few of the biggest open pit mines.

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by tgb on Monday May 02, 2022 @08:09PM (#31242740)
The actual volume stated in the article puts it at more like 0.51 cubic km (18 billion cubic feet), FYI.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by munk-a on Monday May 02, 2022 @04:44PM (#31240667)
An alternative solution, that this article weirdly doesn't touch on, is that the US could also shift policy to stop exporting recycling material. It'd be nice to encourage expanded recycling domestically but if that fails and if ~80% of exported material is going to end up improperly dumped then it'd be far more reasonable to just make sure it's properly dumped in the US.

Make the export of detritus illegal, send the excess to dumps, and if Americans deem this offensive then they can legislate additional subsidies for domestic recycling (even potentially becoming a net importer of detritus!).

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by themeiguoren on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @07:52AM (#31247184)
Agreed. If the issue is that recycling plastic is uneconomical and so it gets shipped out to places that pollute it, the solution is for the recycling centers to stop shipping it out. Or just accept metal-only recycling. This is something to fix at the municipality level.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by alfor on Monday May 02, 2022 @04:15PM (#31240322)
I think we are not in a position to judge what is reasonable to do over hundred or thousand of years with our current technological progression.

Plastics where not really a thing 100 years ago. At our current progression I think we should avoid the big catastrophes (Nuclear war), push for developpement of poor places(get more genius) and advance technology as fast as we can.

At this speed of advancement in less than 100 years I am sure we will have figure out something for the plastic we have generated meanwhile.

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by Syonyk on Monday May 02, 2022 @05:47PM (#31241367)
> At this speed of advancement in less than 100 years I am sure we will have figure out something for the plastic we have generated meanwhile.

The problem is that today's plastic, in far less than 100 years, is reasonably likely to be finely divided into small numbers of molecule sized chunks, and spread evenly throughout the entire biological systems of the planet. We find microplastic in ants in the middle of untouched forestland, because it spreads so well on the wind.

> ...and advance technology as fast as we can.

It's an interesting gamble, certainly - solving the problems created by our current technological development path by pushing further down that development path.

It's just not one I expect to work. You don't generally solve problems by "doing more of what made them in the first place."

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by playpause on Monday May 02, 2022 @06:12PM (#31241678)
Your implied plan (doing less of what made the problem in the first place) seems like more of a stretch to me. It would be nice, but I can’t see many countries giving up plastic. It’s too useful. I think focusing international collaboration efforts on better waste/pollution management (eg getting more waste plastic into properly managed landfills) seems a lot more plausible.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by Syonyk on Monday May 02, 2022 @06:53PM (#31242162)
I may not have explicitly stated it in the parent comment, but it's quite explicit other places.

Either a system is sustainable or it's not. If it is, it can continue forever. And, if it's not, it won't. One way or another, it won't, though you can pick the method early on, and later, reality will force it on you. The history of civilization collapse is the history of this reality being forced on groups of people who thought it didn't apply to them.

Plastics in their current form won't exist as new products in 1000 years (though the current stuff probably won't have broken down entirely). Either something far less vile and toxic to "all life" will have been found, or, more likely, industrial civilization will have done the usual "overshoot and collapse" thing, so we won't have the technology to make them in their current form then.

None of that changes the fact that plastic are toxic to life now - and, so, we ought not be using nearly as much of them. I don't mind "durable plastics" quite as much, but the bulk of it is single use, and splitting out all our recycling, I'm regularly reminded of just how much plastic one cannot avoid, even when trying to minimize it.

If the reality (which it probably is...) is that people won't stop doing anything until the external reality we live in forces their hand, the outcomes are almost always far worse than if we decide to stop doing those things earlier.

Plastics are convenient, certainly. They're also a horrid biotoxin that has, quite literally, blanketed the planet in the form of microplastics. We have no idea what to do with the stuff, and burying it only works for so long (and if you're really careful to not let the bits and pieces leech into groundwater). But, I mean, at least you can get water without having to use a drinking fountain!

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by Retric on Monday May 02, 2022 @10:54PM (#31243938)
Plastics aren’t a system. Some plastics are likely to be manufactured in 100,000 years simply because their made from abundant atoms, non toxic, and have useful properties. The current global economy on the other hand isn’t stable across months let alone hundreds of years. But that doesn’t matter much, the meat your eating today probably didn’t come from a wild animal like the meat your ancestors where eating 100,000 years ago but it’s still edible. Different systems to produce essentially the same thing across vast stretches of time.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by tdehnel on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @04:01PM (#31252855)
> Either a system is sustainable or it's not. If it is, it can continue forever. And, if it's not, it won't. One way or another, it won't, though you can pick the method early on, and later, reality will force it on you.

The mistake you are making is thinking the plastic system is a closed system. It is not. The plastic system is part of the universe, which is populated by people who constantly create new knowledge to solve problems. And we never know which new knowledge will be created which will affect this system.

For example, when nuclear power was invented one might have predicted that cheap, clean power would be available to all. But you probably wouldn’t have predicted the environmentalist backlash to it and resultant continued dependence on fossil fuels.

Or Malthus predicting worldwide food shortages and starvation as the population grew. He had no way of predicting the invention of fertilizer.

There are a million examples of this but the takeaway is: people solve problems and create new knowledge that is constantly redefining what is possible.

> The history of civilization collapse is the history of this reality being forced on groups of people who thought it didn't apply to them.

On the contrary, the history of civilization collapse is rife with people who insisted on thinking about things as closed systems and stifling open ended progress (e.g. ancient Sparta).

It is actually hard to think of an example of a civilization which couldn’t have been saved if only they had the right knowledge. Say the cure for a disease or a piece of military technology.

I believe that is the point the other person is trying to make. That humans continually solve problems, create new ones, and rapid progress means a higher likelihood of developing the new solutions needed.

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by alfor on Thursday May 05, 2022 @10:18AM (#31273670)
I agree with you too, we should avoid things that have a repercussion long time into the future.

I am especially wary of man made chemical molecules that have a long lifespan (BPC, fluorinated compound, etc)

With technology we make two step forward and one step back at the same time. We create new wonderful opportunities but we also create damage that we often overlook at first.

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by kube-system on Monday May 02, 2022 @05:37PM (#31241256)
Plastic recycling is simply not very practical in the current day. Solving that problem is certainly something we should strive for, but plastic isn't going anywhere any time soon. We need something to do with it today and the most environmentally friendly thing to do is to landfill it. If at some point in the future we have a good solution to recycle it, we'll know where to find it. But if we keep dumping it in the ocean we'll probably cause other disasters before we'd ever run out of empty space.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by kwhitefoot on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @02:37AM (#31245379)
> Plastic recycling is simply not very practical in the current day.

Of course it is practical. Here in Norway we recycle about 30% of all plastic from domestic and industrial waste already. We have some way to go though, glass and metal is over 80%.

Some plastic is especially well suited to re-use; for instance, we recycle 73% of PET used for drinks containers.

See https://bellona.no/assets/Avfall-Rapport-5.pdf

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by kube-system on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @09:39AM (#31248155)
Or in other words, even with only 5 million people’s plastic in a rich liberal western democracy, you still can’t manage to recycle the vast majority of your plastic.

That 70% needs to go somewhere, and a landfill is the best place for it. Not an incinerator, a low income country, or the bottom of the ocean.

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by kwhitefoot on Friday May 06, 2022 @02:21PM (#31288282)
Or in yet other words, it takes time to change the habits of a thousand years.

None of it goes to a low income country, and very little to the ocean.

And our plastic waste per person is less than half of that of the US. Reducing plastic waste isn't merely a question of recycling, one must decide which plastics to allow for which purposes so that recycling can be effective. But not using it in the first place is the most effective.

And lastly what does the population of the country have to do with the problem? I this mentioned over and over again in various contexts.

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by kube-system on Friday May 06, 2022 @05:01PM (#31289577)
Scale is a huge part of the current problem with global plastics recycling. There is only so much capacity at recyclers, and there is a massive global oversupply of material to be recycled at the moment. In recent history, much of this oversupply has ended up being shipped to recycling processors in lower income countries where much of it has ended up being dumped. This outcome is much worse for the world than putting it into a landfill in a high income country, despite being officially reported as "recycled".

Reducing the amount of plastic used is certainly a good goal, but it's a non-solution to the current problem. Non-recyclable plastics and the recyclable plastics which are destined to be mismanaged on a truck tomorrow are all better off in modern landfills.

Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by squam on Monday May 02, 2022 @08:43PM (#31242958)
I don't disagree with anything you said. But as an individual, I can at least heed the advice to not attempt to recycle plastics if I'm not certain it won't ultimately end up in the ocean. The landfill is the lesser of two evils.
Re:An illustrated guide to plastic straws (2021) by dr_dshiv on Monday May 02, 2022 @07:45PM (#31242587)
Let’s think positively here, people. Clearly we just need to invent a straw that you can eat afterwards. Maybe it turns into chewing gum?