I think in that case, it’s OK to punish them.

What the OP was trying to convey is that always lead with empathy, communication, and love. But, if after doing that your child is still willfully misbehaving, then they know it’s wrong (you talked to them, calmly and respectfully) so now it’s time to start leveraging punishments (groundings, taking toys, etc).

There's a book, "Nonviolent communication: a language of life", 3rd ed, which writes about this.

From what I remember, if you can talk and listen to the kid, and understand what underlying needs drive the behavior, and then mention this to him -- then he'll feel understood, and notice that you're listening and care. And that was, from what I remember, the most important thing, in solving a conflict. (I.e. being listened to and understood.) The other things then, afterwards, tended to be comparatively simple to solve together.

Yes. Telling the child your own needs and feelings is not enough, you need to ask about and listen intently for the needs and feeling of your child. Only when both you and your child both feel heard and seen will understanding result. And once you have understanding of each other then you both know what to do to take best care of each other. The solutions to the conflict then come by themselves, because you now understand each others needs. This only happens after you've put in the hard work to listen and talk and listen and talk and listen and talk and listen some more...

> The solutions to the conflict then come by themselves, because you now understand each others needs

Well said :-)

(thanks for explaining how that works; before that, it was still a bit vague to me)

Respectfully disagree. The only solution I found to be working is - to not turn your back. Include the son in whatever you are doing and lead by example.

Of course it is easy to say that when not involved in the situation. But in general it helps to understand why the child "misbehaved" and only then change the course, and punishment in my experience never gives the intended results.

> helps to understand why

Yes precisely!

There's a book, Nonviolent Communication (have you read it?)-- I wrote a bit in this sibling comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31209737

That sounds like a coerced promise. He hasn't been given an alternative, and he may not be on board with the explanation. He has learned that the only way out of the situation is to make the promise, whether he intends to keep it or not.

You have to treat him like a person.

I'm curious, what does you have to treat him like a person mean in that context?

If the following things happened with an adult:

1. they lied to me

2. I calmly, respectfully and quietly call them out on it

3. they apologised to me and promised not to do it again

4. they immediately do it again

I would calmly call them out again (publicly yet still calmly and respectfully if we were with others), inform them that I'm not going to remain amongst them, then ostracise them.

How do you ostracise a child when you're their guardian?

Edit: clarified that calling them out on it is done respectfully and calmly

You're missing a step, which most adults also miss when dealing with adults.

You have to figure out why they lied, and not in an accusatory way. Often, particularly when someone wants us to promise something that we don't want to, we are trained to lie to get out of the situation. It can often feel like there is no alternative to lying.

This is, obviously, not an ideal behavior, but you can't solve it by force. You have to accept that they have a reason for not wanting to do what you want them to, and you have to come to a mutual understanding.

In any healthy interaction, you do not unilaterally set the rules. You both have input, and you have to respect theirs, even if you don't agree with it. That will help them learn to respect your input as well.

Explain that to him. Talk to him, explain why things are the way they are. And of course, compromise as you would with an adult. Is your opinion really an universal truth or is there some compromise you can reach?

For example, playing with knives is not a good idea, but maybe all the child wants is to be included in cooking? Giving him a spoon might be enough (and much safer).

But every situation is different, it's not easy. :) Don't give up, and good luck!