The Detroit "region" or sometimes known as "Detroit Urban Area" or "Metro Detroit", is actually quite large and has many beautiful communities with in it. This wikipedia page sums it up well. The "region" is actually the 9th most populated urban area in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Detroit
People also forget how large the actual city of Detroit is. If you look at the map linked below, you'll see that Boston, San Fran, and Manhattan all can fit within the city limits of Detroit.
> It's roughly a 45 minute drive from Ann Arbor to
> Detroit...or 35 minutes for me ;)
1. It's in a different county.
2. You're not really accounting for traffic, though my experiences were during the early 00's.
3. Ann Arbor was a completely different vibe than Detroit, or even a number of the suburbs.
4. Ann Arbor really isn't a suburb of Detroit. If you drive from Detroit to Ann Arbor, the suburbs give way to farmland before you all of the sudden end up in the Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti area.
What I'm trying to show is that it's typically called the "detroit area" for simplicity's sake. Just like "the valley" or "sf area" is often used to encompass SF to San Jose (and the east bay as well). It's more of a moniker for the region.
At the risk of being a bit facile, "an armpit" is what I get when reading about it. No mountains, humid summers, frigid winters, decline and decay in abundance. It's about the last place in the US I'd want to live, I think.
More than a few startups, I'm afraid the whole area needs to work a bit on its 'brand'. How many people from younger generations pretty much immediately think of the rusting industrial husks and other fairly negative things when they hear 'Detroit'? My inclination is that this would most likely happen by being so cheap that people can move in, get lots of space for not much money, and do creative things with it.
BTW, "San Fran" isn't a very current term for San Francisco.
You are certainly right about the space though. Think about having an internet startup that sells its G&S anywhere in the world, why spend $1800 on an apartment elsewhere when you can spend half that and live in a creative urban area, and spend the other half on travel, or your startup.
Lastly, and the most important thing we have going for us, is momentum. We get a fair amount of comments like this, but we used to get a fair amount more. This place is nothing like it was 2 years ago and has changed even more drastically over the past 5 years.
[sarcasm]if you want to strike tech gold and buy $1000 sunglasses and flirt with plastic blondes and surf duuuude then head out west,[/sarcasm] but if you want agency - if you want to affect change, and be part of a movement, if you want to influence a renaissance then send me a message and I will be more than happy to subsidize your plane ticket here to help me count cranes.
It sounds like you're doing good work, which is admirable, but it seems as if you're fighting two battles - one to make your startup work, and one to make the place work. Fighting on two fronts is rarely a good idea.
As for brand? We are working on it. Not through what is outwardly projected, but by focusing on building great companies with products and services that fulfill our clients needs. As we, the greater Detroit community become more successful, the media will change their tune... and you'll get your "better brand".
Until then, we dont really care to pay a whole lot of credence to what the "Arm Chair Experts" have to say about Detroit and the surrounding area, because they couldn't be more wrong.
I lived 10 miles from Detroit for 20+ years. It's not a stereotype, it really is an armpit. Did you know that there are no grocery stores in the city? This is mostly because they got robbed so many times.
Downtown near the casino is probably the only place you can go safely. The problem is that if you venture even a few miles out of your way, it's dangerous. I know at least three people that got carjacked in the past year in Detroit..and all were just returning to their cars in a parking structure.
"Until then, we dont really care to pay a whole lot of credence to what the "Arm Chair Experts" have to say about Detroit and the surrounding area, because they couldn't be more wrong."
I know Detroit and the surrounding area. They aren't wrong. This isn't a recent thing either. Detroit has had rapidly increasing crime rates since the 70s. I wish it was a better city, like Chicago or New York, but it just isn't. It's sad.
Aside from the liberal government doing things like cutting 20% of the police force and investing in a $500,000 art installation, Ann Arbor isn't a bad city for your startup.
In your case, I'd like to ask, where are you now and how long has it been since you've been to Detroit proper.
Did you know that's not true, at all? There are quite a few grocery stores in Detroit. It's not a "food desert" like the media would tell you.
Stop believing lies and anecdotal evidence and your failed assumptions from living far away from the city itself.
Did you know that downtown Detroit proper has a lower crime rate than basically every other major city in the US?
"Stop believing lies and anecdotal evidence and your failed assumptions from living far away from the city itself."
These aren't assumptions. By continuing to deny the problems with Detroit, it will never get better.
This is exactly what has been happening for years. The population continued to deny that Kwame was nothing but a corrupt thug and the city suffered as a result (in crime and people leaving).
"Did you know that downtown Detroit proper has a lower crime rate than basically every other major city in the US?"
Like I said, right downtown is fine. You go even a mile outside the main strip, and it's worse than almost any city in the US. I know, I've been there many times in the last year.
You can't safely live and work in a city like this.
Also, there's eastern market, which is pretty nice (although I'm pretty partial to the farmer's markets in chicago these days).
"You can't safely live and work in a city like this." YOU can't, but i sure can. I've lived and worked near a variety of projects in other cities as well. It's a city. There are bad elements... like any other city. If you got mugged in NYC would you say you can't safely live and work in a city like NYC? Of course not. That's not to say detroit is for you. Some people can handle environments like that. Others can't. It's cool. I would have a horrible time dealing with living and working in Haiti (i would think), but I have friends who deal with it just fine.
You are right that a mile, let alone a few blocks out can be sketchy in spots... but if you've got half a brain, you dont go there. In recognition of some awesome clean up efforts, parts of the Cass Corridor, which used to be the nearest thing to No-Man's land is cleaned up, and awesome. In fact, I spent a day down there with friends and family over the summer.
As for doing business in downtown, it's honestly been a joy for me. I look forward to going to Detroit. The city has awesome character and I'd like to be a part of the resurgence. Is it going to happen overnight, NO. Are efforts in place to make it an exemplar city, you bet. I'll close by saying Rome wasn't (re)built in a day.
DC has humid summers, frigid winters, insane traffic, crime and prostitution, and a host of other things that are wrong with it... but it's still a place that many people want to go. There are national monuments, museums, cultural diversity, great food, great music, and it is the political center of the nation (world?).
I can't speak for Detroit, as I haven't been there, but that's also why I'm not discounting it.
I've found in my life that discounting things superficially has kept me from enjoying life as much as I could have. When I make it an effort to be more open-minded, I find it usually pays off.
All that aside, how in the world is "San Fran" outdated? What are its more modern counterparts?
And I don't think you can dispute the fact that Detroit's "brand" is quite tarnished, no matter how much you click the down arrow.
> All that aside, how in the world is "San Fran" outdated? What are its more modern counterparts?
It makes you sound like someone from far, far out of town. People there call it "the city", which is sort of egotistical in its own way. I would just say "San Francisco".
That's just me though.
2) It would seem odd for me to refer to San Fran as 'the city' from outside of the city, since, for me, 'the city' likely refers to either DC or Baltimore, depending on which I'm nearer to at the time.
San Fran might identify the person as being from out of town, but generally, that's exactly the type of person you'd expect to be saying something like that. Doesn't make it outdated in my view. If, perhaps, it is not in trend, that doesn't make it unmodern.
As for the brand of Detroit, admittedly, there's a lot of bad press about it from the outside. I'd argue that efforts like GrowDetroit are exactly designed to combat.
Lastly, the point I was making about DC is that yeah, it's a crappy place on paper, but it has benefits. Detroit might also seem like a crappy place on paper, but might also have its own set of unique benefits and luxuries even. As you mentioned, the low rent is a great advantage for a startup. As I understand it, there are plenty of areas in Detroit that are safe to be in at night.
Again, I can't really speak for it, having not been there, I'm just suggesting that perhaps you shouldn't dismiss it out of hand so quickly. Of course, it's your life, and I'm being pushy by suggesting you do other than your natural intention.
For example; Mountain View, Cupertino and Palo Alto are all roughly 45-50 minutes away from San Francisco. Yet, it is perfectly fine to say that they are in the Bay Area, or sometimes even as San Francisco for simplicity, familiarity and recognition sake.
There is really no reason to treat Detroit like a plague ..... it is 2011, let the dark history be by-gones, and give these start-ups the due respect that they deserve. They could be successful anywhere at all. Detroit and Southeast Michigan are glad to embrace them and support their goals.
Great job, Alex, for putting this list together.
"While we focus on the Metro Detroit area, we do include entries from throughout the entire state of Michigan. For us it’s about the cause, not about drawing lines in the sand."
A few of the companies on that list may have an office in Silicon Valley but they were founded and still maintain offices or headquarters in SE Michigan.
While Detroit has been trying to resurrect itself, to take just one for-instance, Ann Arbor has just gotten on with life, and slowly but surely the rest of the region is following. Even if Detroit becomes alive again it will be a while before it culturally dominates the area again, if it ever does.
In terms of the sorts of things that might be of interest to Hacker News, there's not much point to resurrecting Detroit and to be honest I don't understand the HN obsession with Detroit. Just drive an hour west. What people don't seem to get is that it really is Detroit that is dead/dying; the Greater Metropolitan Not-Really-Detroit-Anymore area is getting on with it. I will not say thriving, because that isn't true, but only Detroit and the aforementioned absorbed municipalities are dying.
Look, if you love it, great. But don't go giving the rest of us a song and dance about how wonderful it is, because there's more vibrancy in a chunk of San Jose I recently stayed in, considered to be a relatively dull Silicon Valley city, than in downtown Detroit. If you don't think it's a city in a very bad place, there's a word for that: denial.
Also, I remind you, I'm talking about Detroit, not the region. The region is getting on with life. Detroit is still struggling for breath, and it has become clear that the fate of the region isn't at all particularly tied to Detroit, because the rest of it isn't sinking with it. There's literally no possible way to have a more vivid proof of the fact than by demonstration.
It was never a startup hub, it was never a computer programming tech hub, it was full of the sort of Suits that that startup culture is in large part a reaction against, it is bizarre to insist on trying to turn Detroit into some sort of startup hub when there's one radically further along and tied to a world-class University just an hour west. If you want to resurrect it because it's your home, or because you feel for the people who live there, or because you have other interests that are relevant, go nuts. But I don't get Hacker New's obsession with the topic. A few articles about a case study of a modern city in major decline is interesting from a sociology perspective, but it gets a lot more attention than I'd expect from that.
People see a city like Detroit turn to ruins and think this is terrible, this needs to be a thriving city again. No, really as long as we have more prosperity elsewhere, Detroit can stay in ruins.
Please, do take a moment to explain to me how it would be in anyone's best interest to just "let" Detroit die? (Assuming it was actually near death) Also, help me understand how building resources in and around Detroit would affect your resources wherever you are (in the Valley)?
By the way, you might want to check the data before you go trying to throw anyone under the bus, as Detroit... the dead city that you refer to. Yeah, it's a big part of what gave Michigan the lead in technology hiring in 2010.
http://www.mlive.com/business/index.ssf/2011/10/michigan_was... *http://www.freep.com/article/20111006/BUSINESS06/110060525/M...
I'm all for that. It's too bad Detroit needed the government to bail out and nationalize two of its biggest employers--I assume you're as opposed to that as I am, being such a capitalist and all.
As long as you're willing to let the market do as it will I really don't have any disagreement with you. Unfortunately, most of this "rebuilding Detroit", starting with saving GM and Chrysler, has the heavy hand of government involved. And as a citizen and taxpayer, I have every right to say the federal government shouldn't go out of its way to save Detroit. The country can do fine without it. In fact, for what it's worth the country seems to be manufacturing as many cars as ever, and creating lots of jobs. It's no skin off my back that the jobs are in southern right-to-work states, or that the cars are Toyotas, Hondas and Fords rather than GM's and Chryslers. (Or rather, it shouldn't matter, except our tax money was used to nationalize GM and Chrysler.)
Thriving and successful cities don't have population drops similar to those caused by hurricanes: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/23/us/23detroit.html
Perhaps the founders from Ann Arbor could simply have their names removed from the list of startups grown in Detroit.
They could find another method for myself, or anyone else on HN who is not from SE Michigan to discover information about them.
A list of startups grown in Ann Arbor would be of equivalent interest to everyone here. Or anywhere else for that matter.
Oh wait...
over half are from the Ann Arbor area and a few are in California (and other states) with a few remote offices in Ann Arbor.
They really should be pushing for Ann Arbor to be a tech center, not Detroit.