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Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by exdsq on Thursday April 28, 2022 @12:28AM (#31188735)
If you think every project out there is some scam, and the entire space is speculation, then you’re in a similar polar opposite bubble to those trading jpegs. There’s loads of cool things going on in the space that allow you to build products that currently requires third parties, huge frameworks, and trust.
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by Bancakes on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:20AM (#31189644)
I don't want trust. I want to download my favorite html files over https. Why ruin the internet further?
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by cuteboy19 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:04AM (#31188940)
Huge frameworks exist in the crypto world too (huge in relation to the EVM's miniscule capabilities). Frameworkization is a software phenomenon that is orthogonal to trust or anything like that
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by exdsq on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:40AM (#31189124)
But if an abstraction exists that makes things much simpler to work with, maybe it's worth considering? Just imagine the code required on-top of digital banking to buy a ticket to a gig from me online. Those companies that manage this charge huge fees, have huge teams, and it's all sorts of complex. Approaching it from a Web3/NFT standpoint, you mint a series of tickets to your gig. You sell those tickets to people for crypto in a single atomic transaction. Metadata says it's a resellable ticket? Then those people who bought it can sell it to others too! Skeptical it's an authentic ticket? Check if it was minted by the band. Skeptical it's not resellable? Check the meta data. Skeptical they won't send you the genuine ticket? Atomic txs and NFTs mean it's one single tx - a gig ticket for some money. Want to make resellable tickets but you want 5% of the resale? Add a creator rule to the token. Want to check people have valid tickets at the gig? QR code that reads a wallet for a token from the sent of minted tokens. These things that right now span multiple businesses, have multiple fees, constant fraud, are slow, and require signing up in multiple places are literally free with crypto. It's just part of the technology. I think that's pretty cool and has some use cases in an increasingly digital world.
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by cuteboy19 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @12:47PM (#31194834)
NFTs as tickets have a fundamental flaw: it is a decentralized front end to a centralized backend. Ultimately there is only one person in full control: the organizer of the event.

So we can easily dismiss all of the claims you made because all these things can be done more easily via non blockchain solutions.

Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by jeffbee on Thursday April 28, 2022 @12:48AM (#31188842)
The entire world runs on third parties and trust. It works.
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by exdsq on Thursday April 28, 2022 @12:55AM (#31188891)
We don’t know each other - how would we trade or bet or do something that requires trusting each other? For example what would be your current solution to have a $10 bet on the outcome of a sports game tomorrow, between me and you?
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by lifeformed on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:21AM (#31189026)
I'd send you $10 by paypal if I win, and expect you to do the same if you lose. If you don't, I'd call you out on these forums. If you wanted to bet more money, I'd use an escrow service. But also, why would I want to bet on sports against a random stranger?
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by exdsq on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:26AM (#31189057)
It's a use case I happen to like, doesn't mean it's for everyone. Another way to view it - how large a project would it be to program this? It's basically given to you for free when money is programatic such as in crypto!
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by djur on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:47PM (#31197333)
I don't think that turning the world into a casino for the minority of people who would enjoy that is a good tradeoff for the rest of us.
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by chrischen on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:21AM (#31189024)
Silk road, an illegal enterprise, basically ran on trust and reputation (and USPS) and that part of it actually had nothing to do with crypto or blockchains.
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by dtagames on Thursday April 28, 2022 @09:52AM (#31192440)
I don't have a solution for trading but betting can be fixed by parimutuel wagering. Since that form of betting and payout is entirely algorithmic (and not based on the event itself), it can be done safely and transparently in software.

For anyone not familiar, this style of betting (used in horse racing) pays out based on the relative amounts waged on the winners. The house takes a cut of the entire pool and (in theory) isn't interested in the outcome.

Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by gentleman11 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @09:51AM (#31192433)
Either neither party can trust the other, and you need an intermediary to at least verify who won, and possibly to transfer the money; or both people are trustworthy and you can have a simple agreement. If it’s a third party, you have to trust that third party. We can’t get rid of the trust requirement. If the third party is software, what if there is a bug ? More like, when there are bugs
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by chrischen on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:22AM (#31189033)
There are services (startups) for betting on games. The solution is essentially an escrow or third party to mediate the transaction.
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by exdsq on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:27AM (#31189066)
Sure but now we need a company to maintain this stuff! And that means staff, fees, etc... It could very easily be an open source contract with a list of oracles that are voted for/against adding.
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by BaseballPhysics on Thursday April 28, 2022 @09:09AM (#31192013)
> For example what would be your current solution to have a $10 bet on the outcome of a sports game tomorrow, between me and you?

Are you really asking this question as though this isn't a thing that's already happening, right now, today, without the need for crypto snake oil?

Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by djur on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:14AM (#31188982)
Why is that useful to do?
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by exdsq on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:17AM (#31189003)
You've never said "Hey, I know you're wrong, let's bet on it!" on the internet but never been able to go much further? I know I have! Plus I've definitely wanted to play 1v1 games for a bit of money (video games that is). And many others have, as people solving this issue are raising millions and have thousands of users already :)

You may not personally find it useful but it's much harder to solve on the "Web2 stack" than the "Web3 stack" if such descriptions exist.

Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by Hamuko on Thursday April 28, 2022 @12:41AM (#31188805)
What cool things?
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by thawaya3113 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @12:54AM (#31188880)
Or you can just bet on the many apps where this is already legal and you don’t have to code anything or pay gas fees.
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by exdsq on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:03AM (#31188935)
Assume you were replying to my comment so will reply!

So for the first part - this isn’t as simple as you suggest. First off, you need to be in the same country as most require KYC for your specific location (SSN or NI numbers). Second, few let you make your own peer-to-peer bets! Third, they tend to have significant fees or minimum deposits etc… regarding your second point layer 2 chains solve that issue and have done for the last year or more, fees are far far lower and sometimes even non-existent.

Also we probably don’t get to pick our own oracles! I don’t know of any site anywhere that does.

In comparison this is a fairly simple DApp to build.

Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by random-one on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:30AM (#31189073)
> First off, you need to be in the same country as most require KYC for your specific location (SSN or NI numbers).

This is probably because social gambling is still illegal in some places and any legitimate company will not want to participate in your illegal activity. But using crypto tech for facilitating illegal things tracks..

Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by Hamuko on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:13AM (#31188976)
Is the lack of KYC a feature?
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by exdsq on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:18AM (#31189009)
In terms of small international betting it is, you try find a site that lets you bet between the US and the UK.
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by Hamuko on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:20AM (#31189020)
As far as I can tell, the only useful application for the blockchain seems to be gambling with sanctioned Russian oligarchs without the annoying trip to Russia that you'd need to do without the blockchain.

Doesn't really sound that appealing since I don't think gambling is an useful application of anything, blockchain or not.

Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by exdsq on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:23AM (#31189039)
> As far as I can tell, the only useful application for the blockchain seems to be gambling with sanctioned Russian oligarchs without the annoying trip to Russia that you'd need to do without the blockchain.

Come on man, don't strawman discussions or why would I bother continuing to talk to you? If you have decided that you dislike a tech for whatever reason fine, but do something more productive with your time than just chatting crap on the internet.

Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by exdsq on Thursday April 28, 2022 @12:51AM (#31188852)
I quite like oracle based betting. Lots of sports/gaming/news apps have public APIs to see the results of something - aggregate them, plug them into a smart contract, and bet a total stranger on the outcome of an event with internet money held in an escrow account paid to the winner. Getting pretty simple to set up nowadays with drag and drop oracle creation a with some cool results, such as betting $10 on a 1v1 CoD game.
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by jollybean on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:25AM (#31189053)
Those are not 'smart contracts' in the sense you think they are.

They are (probably) governed by some kind of broader contract, and can probably be 'undone' or come under regulator scrutiny.

'Smart contracts' are a neat way for parties to 'agree' on something in a distributed way - but there's just no way that they will live up to being 'regular contracts'.

Maybe for some things like currency exchange - maybe.

But for anything else that happens in this world, contracts are complicated and require nuance. And there's always lawyers and a Judge and regulators that might want to have a say.

And while the application you've described is 'neat' - it doesn't really accomplish much. It's a novelty.

I see zero use for blockchain thus far - other than the eventual appearance of a possibly useful kind of crypto asset that doesn't exist yet because BTC and Etherium are full of flaws.

Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by exdsq on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:33AM (#31189086)
> Those are not 'smart contracts' in the sense you think they are. > They are (probably) governed by some kind of broader contract, and can probably be 'undone' or come under regulator scrutiny.

By smart contract, in this regard, I mean an Ethereum Solidity contract connected to an Oracle that has an Escrow component.

The way I see it is there are many companies at the moment that sit in the middle and mediate things by offering escrow services and trust that if you send X you'll receive Y. Crypto lets you start moving those things into a P2P setting by its nature of atomic transactions, programatic contracts/money, etc... Which I find pretty cool and I think a lot of people who spend some time in the space find cool too. FWIW I was skeptical when I first found a bitcoin ATM at Google Campus in 2014 and only really 'got it' in 2020 after years of saying WTF is the point? And for me that was when I was trying to organise an esports tournament with some strangers online and couldn't decide on how payments would work, while the services that managed this (read some API results and paid out after 7 working days) took a 15% fee.

Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by jollybean on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:02AM (#31189539)
Those are good thoughts - the issue with 'escrow' however remains complicated - it generally implies some kind of authoritative clearing of a contract by some kind of 3rd party. If 2 people are arbitrarily entering into a contract, then I'm not sure how much 'true escrow' can really be had.
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by trinovantes on Thursday April 28, 2022 @02:50AM (#31189465)
So instead of a centralized escrow, you want a decentralized contract to run on a centralized API? Either way, you're still trusting some 3rd party
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by edflsafoiewq on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:22AM (#31189031)
So speculation and gambling?

Add crime too I guess.

Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by peteforde on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:20AM (#31189017)
Very few human social outcomes are truly improved by adding the ability to gamble.
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by dtagames on Thursday April 28, 2022 @09:55AM (#31192478)
It could be argued that gambling is central to human activity. Its ultimate form is the stock market. In essence, everyone gambles every day on many kinds of outcomes, from choosing foods that won't kill us to driving safely, investing in one career and hobby over another, or picking a mating partner.
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by peteforde on Thursday April 28, 2022 @02:11PM (#31196057)
It'd be very hard for me to disagree with the spirit of your reply more than I do.

Creating opportunities for people to gamble - new casinos, scratch-off tickets, those sad machines you see in bars - all of these are cash generation vehicles that historically have highly negative outcomes for members of the communities they are dropped into. Especially for groups that are already disadvantaged. This isn't academic speculation.

As for gambling on every day outcomes - otherwise known as living your life - it's reasonable to say that one of the fundamental measures of progress as a species and a society is our distance from accidentally eating poisoned food, dangerous driving, a lack of opportunity and self-determination, and being forced to accept bad partners.

In other words, the more we remove gambling, the better our lives become.

Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by dtagames on Friday April 29, 2022 @11:31AM (#31206451)
I agree that casinos and crypto are predatory businesses. But I noticed you skipped the stock market -- which was my first and most important example. It would be difficult to argue in the modern world that the stock market is "bad" and we shouldn't have one. Yet it is undeniably a form of gambling -- the most advanced and expensive one, reserved for only the wealthiest gamblers.
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by peteforde on Friday April 29, 2022 @11:41PM (#31213164)
I actually don't think it's gambling, tbh.

There's an interesting discussion to be had about truly free markets, for sure.

However, the modern stock market is neither fair nor random. It's not accessible to you or I in the same way that it is to financial institutions. Front-running and dark pools are accepted as normal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP74RBTE8kI

I would also suggest that Warren Buffett does not see the stock market as random or gambling. When he buys a company, it comes after huge amounts of research. A good stock trader obsessively researches the companies that they invest in. While it might not be anything like a guarantee of success, I sure hope you have better than Vegas odds when investing in a company that you've learned everything you can learn about without becoming an employee.

Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by gentleman11 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @09:53AM (#31192454)
So it isn’t just gambling on crypto prices that web3 is good for; what people don’t realize is that it’s also really great for ordinary gambling? (Half joking)
Re:Do developers think Web3 will build a better internet? by trainsarebetter on Thursday April 28, 2022 @12:48AM (#31188844)
Helium has actually re stimulated my interest in the space.

if you can come up with a set of proofs for a particular action/solution that you can boot strap a network without the need for a company, that’s huge if actually true.