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Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by meetups323 on Friday April 22, 2022 @12:21PM (#31123666)
I wonder if this is an example of not knowing your audience (or rather assuming one's self represents a wider audience than it does).

The people vouching for this at Google are likely product marketing managers, public relations folks, social media managers, etc. All they do is write corporate garbage all day, and much like we have "nit"s in PR's for formatting, variable names, etc; they likely have similar reviews that get flagged for "non-inclusive language" or whatever this is. So they have brilliant idea: the Code people use auto linters/formatters that we enable by default (hey gofmt) and everyone loves it, how about we do the same for the Prose people!

Basically: "All I write is corporate garbage, and all the writing I consume is corporate garbage, and all my coworkers only write corporate garbage, therefore everyone would love a corporate garbage-ifyer!"

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by Icathian on Friday April 22, 2022 @01:34PM (#31125064)
This explanation rings a lot more true to me than the rest of this thread. Everyone here seems to be looking into shadows for the woke gestapo, when I'd be willing to bet that this explanation is a lot closer to how this tool actually came to exist.

I appreciate you adding to the conversation.

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by morgante on Friday April 22, 2022 @05:20PM (#31128301)
It's a little of both. There's enough woke influence over corporate communication to drive all employees to want to avoid non-inclusive words in docs. At that point, this becomes useful even for employees who don't agree with it—I'd rather just have the word flagged now and fix it instead of going back and forth later.

However, the net result is that words are driven out of the language even if everyone involved in the document wouldn't care.

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by FooBarBizBazz on Friday April 22, 2022 @09:39PM (#31130550)
It's also simply --

You're at Google. You need to do some kind of project that can be called a success -- within one quarter. What do you do?

One possibility, the disastrous effects of which we've seen, is to build Yet Another Incompatible Chat App.

This is another possibility. A very safe one, in a way.

You constantly have to demonstrate that you are "useful, self-directed, and doing important things", in an environment where usefulness and importance are extremely hard to judge, and so become very socially-constructed. It can get pretty brutal -- even if, when you step back and take the long view, it all seems ridiculous.

So when you look at what comes out of these companies, it's useful to remember that. Imagine the horrible games in which their employees have found themselves trapped.

(Money's a hell of a thing. Shame you seem to need so much of it.)

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by slg on Friday April 22, 2022 @06:30PM (#31129030)
>However, the net result is that words are driven out of the language even if everyone involved in the document wouldn't care.

No one uses "fuck" in corporate communication either. Is anyone worried about that word being "driven out of the language"? I don't think corporate speech is as influential in overall language use as you are implying.

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by injidup on Friday April 22, 2022 @07:15PM (#31129423)
Funny. I remember graduating over 20 years ago. My first job out of University was on a construction site as a supervisory engineer. My direct manager, a crusty old guy, took me aside one day and explained to me the importance and necessity of applying the word "fuck" as part of my role. This was not a joke on his part. He had observed that I was a soft university educated well spoken book type. Nobody who I was supervising was going to take me seriously ever. I never actually applied his advice to the full extent but I did learn to toughen up somewhat .
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by ngngngng on Friday April 22, 2022 @08:40PM (#31130098)
"Fuck" and "badass" are relatively common in job postings in Utah. I assume it's because people from out of state are worried they'll join a company with a bunch of stiff Mormons so we need a signal to let them know that's not the case. Benefit #1 on the list is beer on Fridays.

Anyway, that's what scares me about this, I like language naturally evolving like it is in the above example, to address a specific communication need. I'm really not a fan of some remarkably privileged people using an insanely powerful company to coerce my language in whatever direction they see fit.

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by seattle_spring on Saturday April 23, 2022 @01:19AM (#31131604)
Relatively common? Can you share links to 2 examples?
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by ngngngng on Saturday April 23, 2022 @01:49AM (#31131753)
Yes but I’ll let you google search “Utah job postings badass” yourself
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by CrispinS on Saturday April 23, 2022 @05:01PM (#31138510)
When I Google it, the first result is... your post, and none of the other results include the word.

Adding quotes to "badass" turns up (on the first page) a mechanics job posted in January, four hits for the same CNA job from over a month ago, and one hit for an administrative job, posted this month.

That doesn't seem like a lot of postings, certainly not enough to be considered an outlier.

Of course to verify that I'd have to do fifty Google searches and chart the data, which I don't really want to do...

I think you should, though, so next time you make such a dubious claim, you have the data to back it up. :)

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by limelight on Friday April 22, 2022 @06:58PM (#31129273)
> No one uses "fuck" in corporate communication either.

Swear words are specifically used to be provocative, so naturally they're not going to disappear. Words like "motherboard" or "whitelist" were historically neutral and primarily used in professional settings, so removal from corporate speech is correspondingly a much bigger factor.

To be clear, I'm not particularly worried or concerned about this. I don't consider it any great loss if we start saying "allowlist" and have happily changed my projects to match. It's not a big deal, and the kind thing to do is to go along with those who do care a lot.

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by teakettle42 on Friday April 22, 2022 @07:47PM (#31129703)
> the kind thing to do is to go along with those who do care a lot.

Enabling bullies in their social dominance games isn’t being kind.

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by Banana699 on Friday April 22, 2022 @09:02PM (#31130295)
It's a perverted version of Pascal's wager, the "You lose nothing by pretend-believing" argument of theologians, but reinvented for an age where social mobs are the new wrathful God. If you stick your neck out and refuse the newspeak, you present a target for Them, you're essentially betting they're too weak to do anything to you, a bet you could either win or lose. But if you comply, then you're safe no matter what the actual influnce The Mob has. The Nash equilibrium is always choosing "COMPLY".

The classic mistake that Pascal and everyone using his argument to argue for their favorite God lies in the simplifying assumption :

- Compliance is cheap, low-risk and fixed-cost relative to taking a stand

Which gets less and less true as the Wrathful God (or His spokespeople) sees you're completely submitting and realizes they can continue making more and more increasingly humiliating demands. Soon enough, you discover you wish you had drawn the red line earlier.

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by tonfreed on Friday April 22, 2022 @07:58PM (#31129786)
Yeah, I generally either mock them or go into malicious compliance mode. Once they realise I really don't care about losing my job they stop pretending to care about this stuff
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by Jordrok on Friday April 22, 2022 @10:41PM (#31130883)
You have a very warped definition of the word "bully".
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by NaturalPhallacy on Saturday April 23, 2022 @09:29PM (#31140434)
“Political correctness is America's newest form of intolerance, and it is especially pernicious because it comes disguised as tolerance. It presents itself as fairness, yet attempts to restrict and control people's language with strict codes and rigid rules. I'm not sure that's the way to fight discrimination. I'm not sure silencing people or forcing them to alter their speech is the best method for solving problems that go much deeper than speech.”

― George Carlin, When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops?

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by raxxorrax on Monday April 25, 2022 @12:42PM (#31157384)
Nobody can be an example of tolerance that has a problem with formal or informal modes of communication. It will never be true or believable.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by barry-cotter on Friday April 22, 2022 @10:10PM (#31130724)
> The number of complainants can often be quite small. For centuries, theorists have worried about the potential of unrestrained democracy to lead to a tyranny of the majority, in which majority groups ride roughshod over the rights of minorities. What we often see today is instead a kind of tyranny of the minority: a system in which a particularly extreme and motivated fraction of the populace can wield outsized power in the face of a majority which is either too indifferent or too scared to oppose it.

https://areomagazine.com/2019/04/02/the-tyranny-of-the-minor...

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by chc on Saturday April 23, 2022 @03:31AM (#31132209)
I don't think there's actually any substantial pushback on the word "motherboard" either. That's not a real thing people are mad about. It seems like Google's AI is just not very good at judging what is considered inclusive or not.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by fennecfoxy on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @06:47AM (#31165861)
Whitelist/blacklist was a hilarious one since it derives from the light/dark day/night separation found in pretty much every culture on the planet.

It's like, of _course_ early peoples created concepts from "day, when it's light" and "night, when it's dark". It has nothing to do with skin colour or ethnicity at all.

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by raxxorrax on Monday April 25, 2022 @12:40PM (#31157330)
That is just enabling some pretty bad actors in my opinion who don't even care about minorities. People that do care tend to be very flexible about language use.

Not being tolerant here is a pretty clear sign of close mindedness in reality or just a hint of lacking life experience.

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by cornel_io on Saturday April 23, 2022 @12:03AM (#31131283)
If you don't use "fuck" in corporate communication, you're not doing it right. Use swears very sparingly (not in every email or presentation, for sure) and only deliberately for emphasis when you need a little shock. Especially effective when the leadup is really dry.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by evocatus on Saturday April 23, 2022 @12:34AM (#31131431)
Correct. There is a time and a place for a little cognitive shock and awe to shake loose the cobwebs of stagnant thought.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by lupire on Friday April 22, 2022 @06:51PM (#31129210)
Yes, a lot of people see any infringement on their freedom of expression to be unacceptable, while expecting everyone to engage with that expression.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by badwolf on Friday April 22, 2022 @03:01PM (#31126500)
They probably just don't want their employees sending their valuable company data to Grammarly.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by throwaway0a5e on Friday April 22, 2022 @07:08PM (#31129361)
If it weren't for the "shadows of woke gestapo" as you call them, these things would never make it to prod because someone would "this ain't right" and when every PM is getting some amount of that feedback it would be heard. The fact that everyone working at Google is on the easy money train and doesn't want to upset that probably has a lot to do with people not speaking up as well.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by michaelt on Friday April 22, 2022 @12:55PM (#31124330)
There's a market for 'help you write english better' tools that spot things like grammar errors.

For example, if my english-as-a-second-language eastern European subordinates feel self-conscious about their english, they might find an automated tool helpful - where a professional journalist would be better served by their own judgement.

The 'inclusive language' thing is just weird though.

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by DancesWTurtles on Friday April 22, 2022 @03:35PM (#31126949)
Just like Google is not an actual search engine but a "recommendation" engine that prods users into getting recommended just what Google needs to recommend ("did you mean...?") this is not an actual writing assistant but a "write (and think) the Google way" mould
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by LudwigNagasena on Friday April 22, 2022 @06:26PM (#31128988)
There is a market for grammar checkers. Word has one for 30 years. But it doesn't try to turn your writing into a textual form of Alegria art.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by yeetsfromhellL2 on Friday April 22, 2022 @04:31PM (#31127677)
Actually I've seen an English linter to help you maintain a passive voice for papers, remove waffle words and unnecessary fluff, etc. I'm not sure I can find the exact one I'm thinking of, but wasn't too bad overall, it spotted errors and made helpful suggestions. It was cool too, because it would read from stdin and integrated into vim pretty well with a few lines in my config.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by alanh on Friday April 22, 2022 @09:24PM (#31130462)
> maintain a passive voice

surely not? even a newspaper should be striving for an active voice, at least anytime the actor is known!

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by j-krieger on Saturday April 23, 2022 @05:44AM (#31132718)
It would work for academic papers though
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by ketzo on Friday April 22, 2022 @06:09PM (#31128845)
Not sure if these are the things you’re thinking of, but I know Grammarly and Hemingway are apps/services with similar functions.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by lupire on Friday April 22, 2022 @06:53PM (#31129226)
Why would you want to maintain a passive voice? That's terrible writing unless you are defendant in litigation.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by yeetsfromhellL2 on Friday April 22, 2022 @07:34PM (#31129596)
I think it was made for publishing scientific research, and you could flag the options for what you wanted checked. If you were okay without the passive voice hints, you could still make whatever you were writing very direct and concise, or less wishy washy.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by words_and_signs on Friday April 22, 2022 @08:32PM (#31130041)
This is wrong. It's a good rule of thumb because passive voice can be a common indicator of weak writing, but it has plenty of good uses in strong writing. The best case to apply it is when the object of a sentence was previously a subject or other focus of prior sentences, and so is more familiar to the reader than the subject of the new sentence. For example:

"The United States had maintained neutrality until 1941. However, it was attacked at Pearl Harbor, and then chose to enter the war."

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by SamPatt on Friday April 22, 2022 @10:40PM (#31130876)
"The United States was neutral until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941, leading them to enter the war."

I'd say active is still better here.

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by suyjuris on Saturday April 23, 2022 @05:22AM (#31132626)
I would disagree. This sentence is about the Unites States, not Japan, and the use of passive voice reflects that.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by j-krieger on Saturday April 23, 2022 @05:46AM (#31132729)
This is disingenuous. Removing the bad actor in this sentence removed part of the cause for the effect. Not an attack happened, a japanese attack happened.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by suyjuris on Saturday April 23, 2022 @08:42AM (#31133777)
I you feel that the actor is an important part of the sentence, you can include it in passive voice as well: “However, it was attacked at Pearl Harbor by Japan, and then chose to enter the war.”
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by alanh on Friday April 22, 2022 @09:26PM (#31130468)
How and why is that possibly better than saying "the Japanese attacked them at Pearl Harbor"? The passive voice is what enables the omission of the actor.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by CameronNemo on Friday April 22, 2022 @10:49PM (#31130916)
Could also just say "the attack on". Then you don't shift focus or use the passive voice.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by Fomite on Friday April 22, 2022 @07:58PM (#31129788)
It's extremely important in a lot of policy positions to be able to use things like "a decision was made".
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by mordymoop on Friday April 22, 2022 @11:37PM (#31131140)
An example of this is when collecting and summarizing anonymous feedback.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by alanh on Friday April 22, 2022 @09:27PM (#31130473)
Is it extremely important to omit who made the decision?
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by SamPatt on Friday April 22, 2022 @10:42PM (#31130886)
Yes. In this case "good" writing is bad writing because the author's goal is obfuscation.

It's bad writing for the reader. But lots of writing isn't actually for clear communication. Especially when the government is involved.

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by Fomite on Friday April 22, 2022 @09:28PM (#31130485)
If one wishes to maintain continuous employment? Yes.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by DavidSharff on Saturday April 23, 2022 @06:55AM (#31133128)
Love it.

I do think there is more activism at play than you might. At a minimum it provides the fear mechanism that prevents employees from challenging the work, particularly if they aren't even on the project (why stick your neck out?).

However, the code format for prose analogy illuminates the writing quality angle brilliantly.

I'm sure I'm not alone in having distinct communication modes in work documents, each with their own reasons to be excluded from the ML dataset:

1. Keep it simple -- when achieved it is highly effective for communicating a work memo, but would be terribly dry if used in auto suggestions for an English major struggling through crafting moving prose.

2. Lazily verbose -- going long is more expedient than crafting a compact message. It's mostly unrefined garbage. (exhibit a this comment)

3. Everything is awesome (positivity inflation) -- a deluge of great, love, awesome, wonderful, perfect, etc. all applied to far too many things, far too often.

Imagine if an ML code formatter included psudeo code inputs, or was given a data set of every local file change (pre-commit) instead of what is sitting in a main branch? My Docs are filled with things that I'd never commit much less pass a code review.

If Google Docs was only used in corporate settings, and we wanted to double down on our drab corporate communication styles, I guess the feature would make some sense.

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by riedel on Friday April 22, 2022 @01:26PM (#31124911)
IMHO OK if the feature would actually provide explainations and it would be based on some sort of rulebook rather some random decision of individuals. I also would be fine if there is a warning if I use the word 'property owner' because some random internet user says that is deeply capitalistic. In the end I could decide if I want to follow the argument. Just nudging people to get away with a warning is bad and will lead to no warning. I doubt even that it will lead to a more inclusive world because no reflection is involved.

The problem for me is particularly that the combination of monopolies combined with AI that will learn from data largely filtered by those monopolies will generate some questionable gradients. So, yes, this might ultimately change language very quickly without much of human discourse over it. This will lead to language with less variation and arguably to a world that does not encourage variation and will be in effect less inclusive.

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by slaymaker1907 on Friday April 22, 2022 @09:42PM (#31130577)
This kind of feature would be very handy for an email client. I don't think many emails are being sent out these days that aren't corporate garbage.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by ra0x3 on Friday April 22, 2022 @06:53PM (#31129235)
This actually…doesn’t not make sense
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by nickff on Friday April 22, 2022 @08:10PM (#31129866)
>"This actually…doesn’t not make sense"

I don't understand what you are referring to when you say "this"; what is "this"? Are you referring to a specific statement by the parent poster, or something described in the OP?

I also don't understand whether the double-negative is intentional (and meant to cancel itself out, and become a positive), or if it is a colloquialism.

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by Shared404 on Friday April 22, 2022 @10:09PM (#31130721)

  This = 'the comment being replied to'.


  This actually !(not make sense).

  V
 
  This actually does make sense.
The reason they wrote it the way they did was to convey that (not making sense) was what they expected from GP, but that instead it did make sense.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by kbos87 on Friday April 22, 2022 @06:11PM (#31128859)
This comes off as an angry tirade full of projection and lacking any real insight.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by la6472 on Friday April 22, 2022 @04:34PM (#31127701)
I support it and I don’t work for google. I like this feature that encourages more empathy in this strife and hate filled world.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by Stupulous on Friday April 22, 2022 @06:41PM (#31129109)
While I don't doubt that an intent of this is to promote empathy, I would need to see some evidence before I could be open to the possibility that that is its effect. Anecdotally, these things seem to incense anger and hatred- I've never heard anyone say that being language-policed made them a better person, but I have seen people behave in a way that suggests the opposite. Personally, I become less empathic when someone assumes authority over what I say or write.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by la6472 on Monday April 25, 2022 @02:28PM (#31158806)
To begin with you and your crew can stop downvoting comments you disagree with. Do it and you will have evidence of change.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by nxm on Friday April 22, 2022 @05:45PM (#31128577)
So Google execs now decides how we speak… brave new world. You like it until it corrects you for not being woke enough
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by Rastonbury on Saturday April 23, 2022 @01:24AM (#31131626)
Where is the line drawn? MS Word suggests style corrections too, despite the meaning being totally understandable.

As an enterprise feature, enterprises would interested in this because they wouldn't want their employees communications to get them cancelled or put on woke twitter. Despite their writing style guide[1] being a bit too woke for my liking i'm sure some people find it a good reference, especially if they don't have capacity to create their own corporate guide.

[1]https://developers.google.com/style/word-list

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by esrauch on Friday April 22, 2022 @06:00PM (#31128745)
It's not like it's silently editing existing docs, it has an underline and you can voluntarily see what alternative wordings might be.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by la6472 on Monday April 25, 2022 @02:30PM (#31158835)
No they don’t decide. They suggest. Are you also offended by the suggestions?
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by SamPatt on Friday April 22, 2022 @10:45PM (#31130901)
Serious question: in what way do you feel that Google suggesting alterations to the specific language used in the article (words like motherboard or fierce) is helping people be more empathetic?

I'm putting aside intentionally and just curious about how this actually encourages empathy?

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by la6472 on Monday April 25, 2022 @02:32PM (#31158855)
Systematic and well entrenched problem require the first step of acknowledgement. If you do not even acknowledge there is a problem of empathy across the board today in our society then you are not even in the first step.
Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by j-krieger on Saturday April 23, 2022 @05:50AM (#31132746)
Nothing about this is about empathy. Not using language that white people at Google deemed offensive does little to help the actual problems. You know what would help?

Not hiring union-busting consultants to convince employees to not join a union against their best interests.

Re:Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very ... by account42 on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:20AM (#31151786)
Neither hate or empathy are in words being written but in the intention behind them. If anything, corporate writing is all about feigning empathy while having none. Or do you actually believe that corporations care deeply about your privacy or all the other things they claim to do.