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Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by csande17 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @10:25AM (#31109824)
> (including, with respect to the Margin Loan Facility a condition which requires that the borrower thereunder satisfy a maximum loan to value ratio of 20%, which is expected be satisfied by the contributions of a portion of Mr. Musk’s unencumbered shares in Tesla, Inc. to such borrower)

Musk is putting up some of his Tesla stock as collateral on the loans. The effect of this is pretty similar to if Musk had sold his Tesla stock and used the money to buy Twitter, but avoids some of the tax and regulatory consequences of doing that.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by throwawaycities on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:11AM (#31110468)
Banks are chartered by the government, thus should be prohibited from giving loans against publicly traded stocks, at least at rates less than the applicable capital gains tax, otherwise these loans are nothing more than government sanctioned tax loopholes for the rich.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by georgeecollins on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:15AM (#31110529)
This sounds like an interesting point but I don't understand it. Why is it worse to give a loan against a building for less than the capital gains rate then it is to do so for a public stock. Can you explain or link to an explanation?

Thank you.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by throwawaycities on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:33AM (#31110810)
Although they are both subject to capital gains taxes there are many differences between real estate and publicly traded stock.

As a preliminary matter, as investment vehicles publicly traded stock is a liquid asset, whereas real estate is an illiquid asset. Generally one invests in liquid investments so that they can be readily converted into cash when needed.

From the tax perspective a building/building owner would at all times be subject to continue paying property taxes. If there were some equivalent wealth tax for stock holders then at least society wouldn’t lose out entirely on this kind of tax avoidance scheme designed for the rich, but I’d still probably prefer these billions in bank loans go to qualified home buyers before lending it to the world’s richest man to circumvent a taxable event.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by eadmund on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:33AM (#31110809)
Not really. The loan isn't really income: the borrower gets $X, but is also on the hook for $X plus interest. It costs him money.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by hannasanarion on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:56AM (#31111166)
It doesn't cost him anything, because the interest rate on the loan is virtually guaranteed to be less than the appreciation rate of the underlying asset.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by bombcar on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:15PM (#31111411)
This has only been true during our surprisingly low interest rate environment over the last 20+ years.

It could change rapidly and people can get wiped out quite quickly when it does.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by hannasanarion on Thursday April 21, 2022 @01:19PM (#31112370)
Don't confuse consumer and central interest rates for discretionary loan interest rates. The ultra-rich have been taking out ultra-low interest stock-backed loans to cover their living costs and obligations for over a century, and no billionaire has ever been "wiped out" by interest loan.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by tofuahdude on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:43PM (#31111795)
That isn't how these mechanisms work from a legal standpoint and ignores many of with-strings-attached realities of this kind of financing.

On the flip side, selling the assets would have no strings attached to the cash.

Further, it is definitely not guaranteed as you assert.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by adolph on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:12PM (#31111361)
> at least at rates less than the applicable capital gains tax

So if you don't sell the stock and thus have no applicable capital gains tax, then you can be loaned NaN dollars?

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by lotsofpulp on Thursday April 21, 2022 @10:35AM (#31109976)
The big difference is the lending terms will surely require the borrower to do something such as sell assets or deposit more money if the value of the collateral (and/or the asset being purchased) falls below a certain amount.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by im3w1l on Thursday April 21, 2022 @10:43AM (#31110081)
Borrowing against your shares is like taking out a mortgage on your home. You still get to live in it (dividend + voting rights), and you are still exposed to swings in value. And you can end up underwater.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by blip54321 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @10:52AM (#31110182)
It's a little bit different.

Most of the ultra-wealthy live on debt. Here's the basic scheme:

- Let's say I own $10B in startup.com stock, but haven't sold it. My income tax burden is $0.

- If I sell the stock, and taxes are 40% in my country, I get $6B, and the government gets $4B.

- If I keep the stock, and borrow against it, I pay no taxes, but I do pay finance fees (e.g. interest). The finance fees work out to less than taxes.

The trick is to never realize gains or income. Debt lets you do that.

One more trick is that a lot of purchases are "investments." If I buy a mansion, yacht, and Picasso on debt I can use them. When I'm bored of them, I sell them, and pay off that debt. I've probably made money on the mansion and Picasso, and lost money on the yacht.

I've paid a little bit of interest and a little bit of tax, but much less than I would have otherwise.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by sokoloff on Thursday April 21, 2022 @10:59AM (#31110294)
What you describe sounds pretty much the same as “if I start with a paid off house and take out a mortgage on it…”
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by hannasanarion on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:59AM (#31111216)
One big difference is that you are constantly paying property taxes on the house, levied as a proportion of its total value, making the mere ownership of it a financial burden. Stock ownership comes with no such burden.

Another is that, should the need arise, stock can be sold at the drop of a hat. It is liquid and fungible so a stock-collateralized loan is seen by banks to be a very safe investment. Houses are not.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by eadmund on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:35AM (#31110830)
You left out the portion where you get the money to pay the principal and interest. Either you actually sell some of that stock, or you work a job to get that money. Either way you that income will be taxed.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by HWR_14 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @01:26PM (#31112474)
Or continually roll the debt over, borrowing more money and more money. Then, when you die, your estate can sell the assets to cover the debt, but that avoids taxes.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by thefreeman on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:54AM (#31111112)
I'm no expert but in other parts of the thread people are saying that interest is tax deductible. So you sell just enough stock to cover the interest and the capital gains are not taxed because they are offset by the interest deduction.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by bombcar on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:19PM (#31111457)
You still have to pay down principal at some point.

In this case explicitly I suspect it has more to do with the uncertainty of the deal going through AND not wanting to incur the tax penalty ALONG with the share penalty (liquidating $30 billion in TSLA would affect its price for sure). If you sold the shares to raise the cash, paid the tax, and then the deal didn't go through and bought the shares back, you'd be out the tax (with a stepped-up cost basis to be sure).

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by MockObject on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:41AM (#31110909)
> - If I keep the stock, and borrow against it, I pay no taxes, but I do pay finance fees (e.g. interest). The finance fees work out to less than taxes.

I'm not following the whole lifecycle. You borrow against your stock, spend that money, and then repay the loan using stock? Without having technically sold the stock?

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by kjksf on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:48PM (#31111879)
You don't have to repay the loan (for a very loooong time).

Let's say you have 10 million in stock.

A typical margin account allows you to borrow up to, say, 40% of that. That's 4 million dollars.

Let's say you borrow $1 million and spend it. Currently interest rate on a margin loan is under %2. So every year the amount you need to repay grows by $20k (2% of $1 million, for simplicity I don't count compounding).

So in 10 years that would be $1.2 million to repay. But you're authorized for $4 million.

If in those 10 years the value of stock doubles to $20 million, then you're authorized to borrow $8 million - the amount you can borrow grows faster than the amount you need to repay.

To be clear: eventually you have to repay it but in the corner case it could be done when you die.

There are of course caveats. If interest rate increases dramatically, then the amount to repay will grow much faster etc. but you can see how e.g. if you have $10 million then you could borrow and spend $100k to live a good life and never have to sell your stock to fund your life (especially if stocks keep going up faster than interest rate, inflation and your spending habits)

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by MockObject on Thursday April 21, 2022 @06:07PM (#31115776)
Very interesting. And the total income works out to more than, say, an index fund?
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by aeyes on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:11PM (#31111346)
You repay the loan with the next loan because you have $10b in stock but only took out a $10m loan. In the meantime the stock appreciates some more or you have more vested stock.

I guess the risk here would be that the stock goes to 0, you get margin called AND you are now on the hook to pay taxes.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by HWR_14 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @01:27PM (#31112486)
> You borrow against your stock, spend that money, and then repay the loan using stock? Without having technically sold the stock?

I know Ken Lay did that exact chain of events a lot to cash money out of Enron before it's bankruptcy.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by sokoloff on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:09PM (#31111333)
You don't repay the loan using stock. You repay it with cash from other sources (possibly thrown off by the new investment) or you keep the loan open and continue to pay interest on it.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by throwawaycities on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:16AM (#31110546)
Unlike a home a publicly traded stock is supposed to be immediately liquid. I really don’t think the banks should be giving rich people loans against publicly traded stock to facilitate a tax avoidance scheme, these billions of dollars would have been better of being loaned to home buyers.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by kjksf on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:59PM (#31112023)
You know how you only work for companies who pay you salary instead of companies who don't?

Aligned self interest is the engine of capitalism.

You don't care if society would be better of if you donate your time and skill to company X for free. You care that company Y will pay your for your time and skill and that's why you work company Y.

The good of society doesn't enter your calculus. Only the good of throwawaycities

Similarly the banks don't care what is optimal way to allocate capital for the good of society (apparently as decided by you).

They care about their self interest. Their business is providing loans so they provide loans to people most likely to repay those loans.

From the perspective of the bank, margin loans are the safest loans they can give because the collateral is fully liquid and under the control of the bank i.e. the moment the borrower crosses margin loan threshold, he gets margin call and the bank sells his stock to ensure the loan gets repaid.

Study the wildly successful economies of communist countries to see what happens when people think they know better that free market what should or should not be allowed in the economy.

So far good intentions have vastly inferior economical results than lightly regulated free market where, for example, participants decide what kind of loans they want to make.

Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by ricardobayes on Thursday April 21, 2022 @10:59AM (#31110301)
In a certain central european country they had 5% yield govermnent bonds, combined with 1-2% lombard loans for private banking clients they invented a financial perpetuum mobile.
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by zzleeper on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:00AM (#31110309)
His approach has been to leverage and leverage and leverage forever. Wonder where he would be in a parallel scenario with a recession in, say, 2018
Re:Musk announces funding secured for Twitter buy by andruby on Thursday April 21, 2022 @10:50AM (#31110155)
I assume he also retains the voting rights associated to the Tesla shares.