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Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by campchase on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:48PM (#31075541)
That is, indeed, exactly what I am arguing. Either:

* Just sell data or;

* Just sell applications powered by your proprietary source of data

Do not:

* Sell derived/refined data as a half-measure

* Sell both applications and wholesale data at the same time

If you feel like that doesn't make sense, you are not alone. Almost everyone in the industry disagrees with my views on this topic based on how they run their businesses. Satellogic is one notable exception. But I can't think of a single other provider that would agree with me.

Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by RosanaAnaDana on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:43PM (#31076255)
I'm in complete agreement with this point of view, with about 22 years experience in the remote sensing space, ~10 of that in private industry.

And its not just Planet that is hung-up on this same failed business model. Its also Hexagon, and a myriad of other earth-observation providers. Some are so difficult to work with its literally cheaper to go buy an airplane and a wide format camera and roll your own.

Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by randomluck040 on Monday April 18, 2022 @05:04PM (#31076534)
I would love to know more about the possibilities of Remote Sensing in the private industry. I‘m working in academia and have the feeling that I’m in an echo chamber all day every day and no insights at all. Any chance I can contact you or can you point me into a direction?
Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by RosanaAnaDana on Monday April 18, 2022 @05:09PM (#31076583)
Sure, check my profile.
Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by JumpCrisscross on Monday April 18, 2022 @06:25PM (#31077420)
> its not just Planet that is hung-up on this same failed business model

There’s a new one like every picosecond.” It’s “delivery, but for dorm rooms” for space tech.

Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by campchase on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:21PM (#31075949)
Also, full disclosure, I work for a satellite imagery provider (https://umbra.space/) where we're executing on the "just sell data" strategy, so I'm fully corrupted as far as seeing the Truth when my own ego and self interest is inextricably wrapped up in this debate.
Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by RosanaAnaDana on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:40PM (#31076224)
Do yall have any plan to do work in the vis/IR space?
Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by campchase on Monday April 18, 2022 @05:21PM (#31076718)
No, but I'm close with Albedo who is pursuing the same strategy in vis and IR: https://albedo.com/
Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by RosanaAnaDana on Monday April 18, 2022 @07:40PM (#31078138)
Great! Checking them out.
Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by frakkingcylons on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:30PM (#31076075)
> Sell both applications and wholesale data at the same time

Bloomberg comes to mind since they offer wholesale access to data in addition to all the terminal functions.

Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by ackbar03 on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @12:07AM (#31079674)
Bloomberg's main product offering is still the data feed though. The "application" part of it definitely makes it easier to use but a lot of trading desks build their own algorithms and pricers on top of that data for the functionality they really need. The built in stuff bloomberg has tends to be overly simplified
Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by throwaway2037 on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @03:00AM (#31080341)
This has not been my experience. My view of Bloomberg is two primary products: (1) Bloomberg terminal and (2) Bloomberg BPIPE.

(1) is a desktop (and now mobile) application that trader, sales, etc. use to communicate, view raw data, and view derived data in "mini-apps" (price this bond under scenario X, etc.) The base cost is about 25K USD per year (there are local IT costs above the terminal license fees). There is a raw data access API for Excel, but very limited. They block your API access if you try to download too much data. The days of pricing any kind of volume of products from a Excel Bloomberg API is mostly gone. Also, you cannot run it on a server and just screen scrape / use data API all day long.

(2) is a raw data feed service, akin to Reuters. Not well understood by industry outsiders: There is no "all you can eat data service" anywhere in finance. Period. Every primary data source is now carefully guarded with license costs and special rules (no redist, etc.). Some stock exchanges make more money selling data licenses than collection trading fees! I have no idea about BPIPE prices, but I assume expensive and per data source with nearly infinite granularity.

About revenue: (1) Wiki says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomberg_Terminal

If you believe it: 20K USD per terminal and ~325,000 terminals as of 2016. That is 6.5 billion USD per year. Nice.

About revenue: (2) No idea. I cannot find any reliable published stats.

Lastly: I regularly see people argue on HN about an open source version of Bloomberg. It is impossible for two reasons: (a) Network effect in the communication channels -- lots of people mostly use Bloomberg chat / email and hardly use data, besides the trivial. Most people on the buy side (money management, hedge funds, portfolio managers) join Bloomberg to talk to other people on Bloomberg. And: (b) data licensing.

Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by campchase on Monday April 18, 2022 @05:22PM (#31076737)
Interesting example! Planet sometimes describes themselves as "Bloomberg for Earth Observation" or something along those lines.
Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by _puk on Monday April 18, 2022 @05:34PM (#31076888)
"Bloomberg for x.." strikes me as just the modern corporate version of "Uber for x..".

I've heard so many founders try to describe their business as "Bloomberg for.." when trying to describe a mixed focus offering of products that I immediately hear alarm bells nowadays.

Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by palata on Monday April 18, 2022 @06:25PM (#31077417)
Where does a system like https://picterra.ch/ lie? They seem to provide a way to tune algorithms for your images. Are those "algorithms nobody want", or is that helping niche use-cases (by allowing customisation)?

Disclaimer: never actually used their system, just saw presentations about it, which show how one can train an algorithm to count... stuff.

Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by jre on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @03:05AM (#31080374)
Hey, I'm the lead engineer at Picterra. Would be happy to answer any questions.

What we are trying to do is indeed allow customers to build algorithms tailored to their use cases. We often joke that the reason our ML works is because we are overfitting to customer datasets/use cases. But I think that's somewhat true in the sense that we are not going for "worldwide trees counting" but more for "reliably count cars on these 50 parcels".

It's also interesting to note that a sizeable chunk of our revenue is coming from companies with drone data where it makes even more sense to be specific to customer data (resolution, time of day, geo, etc...).

Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by campchase on Monday April 18, 2022 @09:53PM (#31079035)
Terrific company and interesting technology. I see them as an application making it possible for non-technical people to automate basic workflows. I’m skeptical that’s a big audience but low code/no code solutions in other industries have enjoyed surprising success, so I look forward to being pleasantly surprised.
Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by countvonbalzac on Monday April 18, 2022 @06:44PM (#31077605)
Thanks for the reply! I'm curious where you draw the line between derived data and a full application for something like modeling climate risk for insurance?
Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by campchase on Monday April 18, 2022 @09:55PM (#31079047)
It’s blurry. Can you take an action based on information presented to you from within the software? Probably a sign it’s an application at that point and not just a data feed.
Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by astrea on Monday April 18, 2022 @11:53PM (#31079612)
One thing that comes to mind for me is GasBuddy. They simply show me the raw data feed (price of gas at various stations). It's up to me to decide based on my MPG, distance, price, etc. what is worth fueling up at.
Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by dylan604 on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:32PM (#31076096)
Who are you to tell a company what they can sell. If they want to sell the raw data so people can do whatever they want with it, then sound reasonable. If they also want to sell data with some analysis already applied so that other people can buy that data because they don't have in-house for it and just want pretty pictures to put in the deck, then why not sell that too?

You don't always have to order the biggie fries and drink, you can just order the standard meal.

Re:The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what cus... by altdataseller on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:56PM (#31076425)
You can do anything you want.

The OPs point is that it won’t be profitable/effective, that’s all.