News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by sirsinsalot on Friday April 15, 2022 @06:44PM (#31046852)
I'm a hiring manager and coder. This last 12 months alone, i've interviewed 100+ engineers.

Bootcampers have these common problems, caused by the bootcamp's perverse incentives:

- Inflated sense of self worth. Often, they expect to be senior in 2 years, and consider themselves "experts" after leaving the bootcamp. - Inflated entitlement, making placing them within teams difficult. - Inflated sense of what the job market is like, how hard you have to work, and what an engineers learning curve looks like.

This is a generalisation, and there are outliers, but I find the above to be true. They're not students, they're customers, and they're lied to in order to make a sale.

I'm self taught, no qualifications; I have no objection to self-learning ... but the bootcamps do real damage.

Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by aunty_helen on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:21PM (#31047165)
As a former bootcamp tutor, senior dev, startup founder and now employer of a former student, the inflated sense of self worth is there but I think it's overstated or overemphasised.

I would say ~30% of my students had some form of higher than realistic expectations of where they would when they finished the course. I made a point of beating that out of them.

But there were very few, maybe only 5% people that really fit your description. But I can remember them very clearly whereas the middle std dev of students I wouldn't recall much of them.

Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by sirsinsalot on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:29PM (#31047228)
I don't think it is selection bias. I keep notes on every interview I conduct, and went back reviewing the bootcamper grads recently.

I would say close to 60% were unsuitable for even junior positions. Their arrogance made them dangerous, and they knew just enough to cause problems.

You can't speedrun a career, and bootcamps sell a lie that you can. Sadly, the people who end up losing out are the people coming out of the other end.

It is also a sad fact, that often, regardless of bootcamper incompetence, you can find a more incompetent manager willing to hire that person and validate their skewed world view.

As you can tell, i'm tired of it. At least uni grads from CS courses know enough to know they know very little.

Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by aunty_helen on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:46PM (#31047371)
We all know the tech hiring process is broken and bad at picking performant individuals.

In the time you have available, under the conditions you have the candidates, I don't think I would be able to determine competency or even personality traits.

In a 4 week segment that I taught I would start to form opinions of students after ~6 hours of interaction with them. Sometimes arrogance was just nerves, expectations were super malleable and not necessarily deeply embedded.

Competence is almost completely separated from course completion / rate of completion. Effort applied isn't a great indicator either (although slightly better than the other two).

I would recommend if you want to find great candidates, teach a bootcamp. There's literally the top 10% going through that can just be picked off. I hired one of the 3 brightest I taught and the other two I primed for when I have hiring budget.

Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by metadat on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:59PM (#31047489)
"Just pick the cream off the top, even though you're supposed to be their instructor."

Because that's totally moral and ethical? No conflict of interest at all. What a neat hunter trick. Also, tell them you're their fairy auntie, that'll disarm the marks even more.

Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by aunty_helen on Friday April 15, 2022 @08:22PM (#31047654)
Sorry, can you explain the conflict here and who or what it's conflicting with? I don't think you've thought this out or thought about it from the point of view of the students.
Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by 29083011397778 on Friday April 15, 2022 @10:06PM (#31048528)
Your recommendation was to teach a bootcamp to find applicants. This, in my mind, reads like a combined internship / interview that the applicant pays the potential employer to partake in.
Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by aunty_helen on Friday April 15, 2022 @11:49PM (#31049287)
OK, that's not what I intended. Teaching a bootcamp is pretty full on commitment so using it solely as a hiring funnel would see you ousted via feedback scores pretty quickly if you weren't delivering on the learning aspect.

The way I see it, and I'm open to being wrong about this, is that people that join a bootcamp are doing so to find a job. If at the end of the course I shoulder tap the best students I've had and we connect on linkedin (or they make the request) and then we end up entering into some kind of internship / jr position, I can only see that as a good thing.

The dev gets a job, I get good staff, the course gets their vague job placement goals met and at the end of the day, software gets written.

The only people I see being disadvantaged is others in the market for a dev. But that's not going to keep me up at night.

Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by carlmr on Saturday April 16, 2022 @07:07AM (#31051405)
>You can't speedrun a career, and bootcamps sell a lie that you can.

Not a bootcamper but I think this isn't true. If you put in the effort and you're moderately intelligent you can speedrun pretty much any career in terms of knowledge.

However I do think there's a negative selection bias in the people that end up doing the bootcamps. They're not the self taught people that can teach themselves x in a few weeks. These people don't go to bootcamps, because they already taught themselves x and don't see the purpose in doing a bootcamp for a lot of money that teaches them x and doesn't give them a useful certificate.

The main benefit I see in the classical university track is that you gain more breadth of knowledge. And while you may not need most of it, it often helps in problem solving to know that some things "exist". Just so you can Google the details when you're faced with a similar problem.

The other benefit is of course the signaling value. Bootcamps don't have much of it.

Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by sirsinsalot on Saturday April 16, 2022 @08:29AM (#31051775)
> In terms of knowledge

Perhaps, but efficacy is knowledge combined with experience. Experience requires time, diverse challenges, mistakes and so on.

Many bootcampers (and low-level developers generally) seem to think you can jump ahead to being senior/lead without actually gaining the experience, making the mistakes and learning the lessons first-hand.

Sadly, there's plenty of crap low-level companies that will hire them too.

Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by carlmr on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @08:50AM (#31096099)
Oh, ok, I thought you were talking about the knowledge part, because most university students come without useful experience, too. But no, obviously nobody should be in a lead position directly after college or bootcamp, except maybe if they had a lot of experience prior and this was only some qualification "on top".
Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by gamblor956 on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:42PM (#31047336)
That describes someone I know down to a T. Bootcamp graduate, can barely code, but claims he's aced every interview and blames the graphic designers and business suits when he doesn't get an offer. He also expects to be paid like a senior with only 2 years of experience.

He has been fired from every coding job he's had, due to difficulties working with others. In a nutshell, he's convinced that he knows more than everyone else. (For example, he once spent 3 hours arguing with a guy who builds rocket systems at JPL about which of them knows more about rockets.)

Him and others like him have soured a lot of LA tech companies on hiring boot camp graduates.

Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by LilBytes on Friday April 15, 2022 @11:07PM (#31049011)
Sounds absolutely insufferable.

How do people continue to get by with such little insight.

Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by goldcd on Friday April 15, 2022 @06:50PM (#31046901)
Exploitative education has been around for decades - I'm just bemused how it manages to survive in IT. And I do blame 'IT' for not snuffing it out. With a computer and an internet connection, there's more education available for free than any one person could ever need. I'm non-technical, but can't see why anybody couldn't take the skills and say contribute to a open source project to build a CV that could be taken seriously, for no expenditure.
Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by sirsinsalot on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:42PM (#31047334)
It is insecurity. Some people aren't that self directing and can't navigate the quantity of information with confidence.

These people also tend to be learning for money/career, not fun. Fun-directed learning self generates its reward, so it is easier to do it with confidence.

Personally, the "promise of a job" marketing betrays the motivation of the students. Not that the motivation is bad, but it isn't how many self-directed learners get their kicks.

Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by JJMcJ on Friday April 15, 2022 @06:56PM (#31046961)
If the typical ads on YouTube for bootcamps are any indication, I can believe the self worth issue.

The clear implication is that you finish the bootcamp and you will be on top of the world.

Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by roguecoder on Friday April 15, 2022 @06:52PM (#31046928)
I find it varies a lot by bootcamp. It seems like the ones coming out of the Ruby community frequently have better pedagogy & more realistic expectations than the ones teaching React & pretending that's all there is to software engineering.

React is like Excel: highly structured & linear. People who are only experienced with React end up completely unprepared when they need to start creating their own abstractions.

Re:Single mom sues coding boot camp over job placement rates by Joof on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:22PM (#31047167)
If you're hiring, I know an enthusiastic boot camp grad that loves ruby and can't stand react.

My company has a react team somewhere, but not ruby...