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Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by nottorp on Thursday April 14, 2022 @08:40AM (#31026134)
That was before global social networking. Now if you're not on the big platforms your opinion may as well not exist.

"Oligopoly".

With the added problem that the big platforms are all subject to US "moral" censorship. Which a takeover by Musk won't fix.

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by basisword on Thursday April 14, 2022 @08:44AM (#31026168)
>> Now if you're not on the big platforms your opinion may as well not exist.

Before global social networks your opinion didn’t matter either. And that was probably a good thing. People are entitled to their opinions but most peoples opinions are idiotic and shouldn’t be broadcast around the world to be picked up and amplified by other idiots.

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by nottorp on Thursday April 14, 2022 @08:47AM (#31026215)
>>> Now if you're not on the big platforms your opinion may as well not exist.

> Before global social networks your opinion didn’t matter either. And that was probably a good thing. People are entitled to their opinions but most peoples opinions are idiotic and shouldn’t be broadcast around the world to be picked up and amplified by other idiots.

Oh but who decides what opinions are idiotic? This is how the idea of free speech emerged :)

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by JumpCrisscross on Thursday April 14, 2022 @08:53AM (#31026287)
> who decides what opinions are idiotic?

This is a valid question. The answer is clearly not a firehose—free speech absolutist forums are selected against by users for the toxic pits they devolve into.

Multiple forums and the gating mechanisms of wealth and literacy were the Enlightenment era’s filters. We don’t want nor have those any more.

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by ohwellhere on Thursday April 14, 2022 @10:26AM (#31027481)
The question is further interesting because social media already tried to answer it: you do, for yourself!

At scale, with naive ML clustering algorithms that also prioritize engagement... that devolves into bubbles.

(I think that's still the right answer, but the implementations need work.)

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by smcl on Thursday April 14, 2022 @10:30AM (#31027535)
> Oh but who decides what opinions are idiotic?

I'll gladly clear this one up for you. It is: whoever decided the T&Cs of the platform you're using - the ones you agreed to when you signed up.

If you're banned from Twitter for posting white supremacist hate speech, paedophilia, for organizing targetted harrassment or anything else Twitter deems contrary to their T&Cs remember that (depending on where you live) while you may have the right to express yourself, I have the right as the operator of a platform not to listen to you or have you on my platform.

What most of the people whining about being booted from Twitter are upset about is that they aren't able to annoy the people they want to anymore. I'm fine with this.

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by samstave on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:00AM (#31026376)
What a stupid and idiotic question! Why would you even think to ask such a thing?! I'll have you know that my understanding of the situation is so much more evolved than yours, because I saw a headline referring to an article on another site that said that my assumption with no data is correct, as dictated by my emotions being reinforced with the multitude of soundbites affirming my smugness in my perceived expertise based on my OWN research!
Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by wussboy on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:54AM (#31027034)
Deleted by me
Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by BrianOnHN on Thursday April 14, 2022 @08:54AM (#31026300)
Do both democratic and meritocratic methods of polling suggest the opinion is harmful? Delete.

Otherwise it stays until consensus.

The edge cases pale in comparison to the broadly accepted manipulation of a near-majority. And furthermore compared to the point-of-no-return where the majority is sufficiently manipulated.

Edit: downstream comments emphasizing the edge cases must've missed my last paragraph. The improvement only has to be better than doing nothing. Right now doing nothing is arguably acutely affecting almost 50% of the US population. No way the edge cases add up to that.

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by JumpCrisscross on Thursday April 14, 2022 @08:56AM (#31026334)
> democratic and meritocratic methods of polling suggest the opinion is harmful? Delete.

This is, in essence, selecting for experts spouting popular opinions. That’s a dangerous incentive model. (All before we even get to the question of delineating the experts.)

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by ImPostingOnHN on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:45AM (#31026907)
it's almost as dangerous as non-experts spouting bad, counterfactual objective claims and pretending they are experts
Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by pigeonhole123 on Thursday April 14, 2022 @10:11AM (#31027273)
Which doesn’t sound very dangerous to me
Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by monkey_monkey on Thursday April 14, 2022 @10:33AM (#31027566)
Except that in the last 12 months, people have literally died because they believed non-experts creating and amplifying anti-vaccine conspiracy theories.

'I wish I'd been jabbed'...

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by BrianOnHN on Thursday April 14, 2022 @11:22AM (#31028122)
Thanks for this.

It's like, other people would rather ignore reality, life and death, than budge on their uneducated opinions.

Ego is the enemy.

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by nradov on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:09AM (#31026482)
Should the majority be able to suppress the speech of minorities when they express unpopular opinions on, let's say, civil rights and equality? What is meritocratic polling and who specifically gets to evaluate merit?
Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by lubesGordi on Thursday April 14, 2022 @10:28AM (#31027508)
If I were to get on twitter right now and start posting my opinions, no one would give a shit. There's something else going on that is promoting polarizing opinions and making these forums devolve.
Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by basisword on Thursday April 14, 2022 @10:42AM (#31027648)
I think it's monetisation. In the past, monetising your opinion was difficult. It was limited to a select few who could get on the TV or in the print media. Now, people are incentivised to say things which will generate controversy because eyeballs == money. If you got on Twitter and started posting polarising opinions and worked on promoting those eventually the engagement will (possibly) reach a point where you can gain financially from it and you're now incentivised to continue posting polarising content. The content doesn't even need to be ethically right/wrong, it just needs to make one group of people angry and another defensive. There are plenty of things we need to have a debate about as a society (because they are not black/white and require nuance to solve) but they will never get solved properly because both sides refuse to discuss the issue.
Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by frob on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:06AM (#31026441)
> Now if you're not on the big platforms your opinion may as well not exist.

I'm no so sure about that. Since leaving social media, I've become quite involved in local politics. I now know some state legislators on a first-name basis and multiple directors of state departments in multiple states. I can call up people I've helped get elected and get my thoughts right to them. I find my opinion to effect much more change than it did when I was shouting into the digital void.

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by nottorp on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:51AM (#31026991)
> I can call up people I've helped get elected and get my thoughts right to them.

How about regular citizens who voted for those people but didn't "help them get elected"? Do they get to voice their opinions? Or what you're saying is that your politicians only serve those who directly donated resources (time is a resource) to them? Even though they should theoretically serve their whole constituency?

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by frob on Thursday April 14, 2022 @10:08AM (#31027242)
They absolutely do. The vast majority of the events I interact with these people at are open to the public with announcements in local news papers. They have dedicated communication channels. The last person I helped spent every Saturday for two months hanging out at the town dump to meet people and hear their concerns. He is planning on making it a monthly event going forward. It can be amazing how empty town, village, and county board meetings are. Show up, state your opinion in a respectful manner, come prepared with an informed argument, and take the time to chat with people afterwards. They'll remember you and if you have a consistent track record of being level-headed and productive, you can start to carry some real influence.

Like much in life, half the battle is just showing up.

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by jcranmer on Thursday April 14, 2022 @10:10AM (#31027265)
If you can't be bothered to contact your representative, how does your representative know your opinion?

You don't need social media to inform your representative of your opinions--and quite frankly, more direct communication is probably more effective in informing your representative of your opinions than social media.

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by deelly on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:38AM (#31026813)
> Since leaving social media

Oh, irony..

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by ss108 on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:20AM (#31026607)
TIL that, despite the fact that I vote and write and discuss things with my friends, my opinion doesn't exist because I don't share it on Twitter or Facebook.

come on man

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by jameshart on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:06AM (#31026443)
Are you somehow under the impression that having your opinion published on Twitter is the same as having your opinion matter?
Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by EL_Loco on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:49AM (#31026961)
>Now if you're not on the big platforms your opinion may as well not exist.

This view somewhat misses the point. If you get on the big platforms and become famous, TODAY, you might have an opinion that matters to quite a few people. What about BEFORE? What platform were the big youtubers using in 2002? The big instagram influencers, where were their voices being heard in 1998? Paraphrasing you, "their opinions didn't exist".

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by Xylakant on Thursday April 14, 2022 @08:59AM (#31026372)
What about the people that get pushed off those large platforms through constant abuse, threats and trolling? Do their opinions not matter? Or more general: at what point does an utterance stop being an opinion and start being assault?
Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by bogantech on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:04AM (#31026423)
> at what point does an utterance stop being an opinion and start being assault?

At the point defined by the letter of the law

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by Xylakant on Thursday April 14, 2022 @10:17AM (#31027354)
Which law? US law? German law? Chinese law?

What about cases where the defendant can’t pony up the money to sue? What about cases where the defendant has no viable way to sue in the US, where the social media networks mostly reside?

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by bogantech on Thursday April 14, 2022 @11:07AM (#31027935)
> Which law? US law? German law? Chinese law? That depends on where the abuser is I guess?

> What about cases where the defendant can’t pony up the money to sue?

You don't sue abusers and people who send you death threats you report them to the police

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by Xylakant on Thursday April 14, 2022 @11:32AM (#31028276)
The police will do fuck nothing - if you excuse my language.
Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by fortran77 on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:35AM (#31026765)
> At the point defined by the letter of the law

Well, then, it's interesting that Spike Lee's comments were judged to be threatening harassment (he settled after legal action was taken against him and a judge ruled the case could proceed), yet he was never banned or removed from twitter.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/nov/12/spike-lee-sued-...

Let me be clear, this isn't about the Martin case -- this is about an uninvolved person who had nothing to do with the case at all being singled out for harassment by Spike Lee. And @Jack thought it was just fine. This isn't about supporting some stealth agenda; it's about not telling a posse to attack some innocent old man.

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by coldpie on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:43AM (#31026873)
The solution to that is to break up big companies, not compel them to platform hate speech.
Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by smachiz on Thursday April 14, 2022 @10:27AM (#31027490)
The "Big Platforms" used to be newspapers, and then TV.... there has always been editing and curation.

Social Media actually was a huge "democratization" of the ability to give a very large voice to some very minority views.

Previously we had subjective - but real - barriers to having a voice.

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by lolinder on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:39AM (#31026818)
> Now if you're not on the big platforms your opinion may as well not exist.

As someone who lives in a deep red state, I can tell you that the banning of various alt-right voices from mainstream social media has amplified their appeal among those inclined to listen, not eliminated it. There are plenty of channels for sharing your ideas besides Facebook and Twitter, and they use them.

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by themitigating on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:32AM (#31026734)
Before global social media there were newspapers, TV networks, and books. If you weren't on them, which was much harder to get on, your opinion didn't matter
Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by samstave on Thursday April 14, 2022 @08:57AM (#31026344)
(Not related to FB's META)

--

But we live in a Meta-gopoly. Basically a control system by pseudo-chosen monopolies in various verticals that are all run by NGOs, but in bed with GOs.... with a revolving door of influence.

Look at the revolving door between FB and the NSA, or the fact that Amazon is building, running GovCloud, or that the CEO owns one of the big media firms, and that he is able to get clearance for satellites and rocket launches...

The non-existent lines between global corporate influence and which governments either benefit or suffer from the tech reach is quite disturbing.