News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by Aardwolf on Monday April 11, 2022 @07:26PM (#30996524)
I'm not a mac user (but a linux user who chooses desktops with the windowing paradigms of like windows 2000 or so plus multiple desktops) so have no idea how it's like in practice, but:

These days it's very common for more than half your work to take place in a browser, with many browser windows, each having many tabs

Every window of the browser almost is like its own application for the user, yet they're all from the same application with the same name for the OS

How does an application switching interface, rather than window switching interface, work out for that, if a lot of what you want to switch between is different windows of the same browser?

(and what if in addition there would be also many terminal emulator windows, each also with many tabs, and maybe some code editors, spread across multiple virtual desktops)

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by nneonneo on Monday April 11, 2022 @07:41PM (#30996674)
Cmd+` switches between windows of the same app, and it's actually more convenient (IMHO) than using Alt+Tab to switch between every one of your windows from every app. There are also a handful of trackpad gestures for showing all the windows in the current app or all of your windows.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by pcthrowaway on Monday April 11, 2022 @11:26PM (#30998251)
As long as you haven't made the active window full screen, or the window you want to switch to, then yes, it works. But it is painful :P
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by faller on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @05:10AM (#31000262)
> As long as you haven't made the active window full screen, or the window you want to switch to, then yes, it works. But it is painful :P

What's being described as "full screen" windows on macOS is not exactly that, and it's very different than full screen windows on Windows or the standard Linux window managers.

On macOS, when we click on the little green button on top of a window, that window becomes full screen *and* becomes a new single-window workspace.

https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/use-apps-in-full-sc...

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by rwc on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @04:42PM (#31008003)
You can "Maximize" the app (to put it in Windows parlance) by Option+Click the green button (you can observe during the hover state for the green button the change from "full screen" to "maximize" by pressing Option).
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by Crazor on Saturday April 23, 2022 @01:13PM (#31136127)
Or even just double-click the window‘s title bar. Just like on Windows
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by edanm on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @01:43AM (#30999028)
That's one of the reasons I never make windows full-screen.

Except for that annoying quirk, I actually find the interface better (though it definitely took time to get used to it).

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by FranksTV on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @02:21AM (#31011741)
I prefer windows to be full screen. Then I three-finger swipe between apps on my trackpad.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by edanm on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @03:53AM (#31012176)
I get that. I just use an app that lets me maximize windows with a shortcut (I use Size-up but there are many great options). I then make sure to maximize everything, so effectively all my windows are always maximized.

It's not the same as fullscreen, because it still has the top mac bar, but that's fine, and it gives me the ability to cmd+tab / cmd+tilde through my windows.

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by iso1210 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @07:07AM (#31000991)
It's inconsistent compared with alt-tab behaviour.

cmd-tab switches to the last used application (assuming you don't hold down), right now for me that switches from Firefox to Slack.

Pressing cmd-tab again switches from Slack back to Firefox.

However for window switches

cmd-` switches from my HN window to a jira window. cmd-` again switches to a webmail window. To switch from jira back to HN I have to press cmd-shift-`

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by danaris on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @10:39AM (#31003353)
If you press Cmd-Tab, then let go, and press Cmd-Tab again, yes, you get back to the first application you were in.

If you press Cmd-Tab, hold Cmd, and keep hitting Tab, you cycle through the available applications.

If you press Cmd-`, get the window you want, and do something in it, then press Cmd-` again, you get back to the first window you were in.

If you press Cmd-` repeatedly, you cycle through the available windows of the active application.

There is a slight difference in how you trigger the two behaviours—and the behaviour of Cmd-` can sometimes be a little opaque, I grant, since "do something in the window" is not always 100% clear, either to the user or the computer—but they do have analogous behaviours.

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by iso1210 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @10:54AM (#31003553)
Press Cmd, Press `, Release `, Release Cmd

You've swapped from window 1 to window 2

Press Cmd, Press `, Release `, Release Cmd

You swap from window 2 to window 3

Press Cmd, Press tab, Release tab, Release Cmd

You've swapped from application 1 to application 2

Press Cmd, Press tab, Release tab, Release tab

You swap from application 2 to application 1

That if you type something after swapping window and the behaviour changes is even worse!

For cycling

Press Cmd, Press Tab, release Tab, Press Tab, Release Tab, you can move from application 1 to application 3, although it doesn't switch immediately, just shows you a menu while you hold down Cmd

Do this with windows and the actual window changes as you move, not a menu

It's poor behaviour and one reason I prefer my linux desktop to my anicent macbook. (Another reason, I've got about 15 opwn terminals, but I can't just raise 1 terminal window above my browser, I have to raise them all. Of course there's no focus-follows-mouse either, it's all very user-unfriendly, at least by default. I'm sure there's some software that might fix this, but back in the 90s when I was using Windows I remember that sort of software was just terrible. The easier option is to finally fix my linux laptop, which died around the time covid started, and thus wasn't a critical path fix)

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by alsetmusic on Friday April 15, 2022 @11:51PM (#31049290)
I filed a big report about this years ago. Please do the same so that Apple knows this bothers people.

Edit: it didn’t behave this way before 2009

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by Crazor on Saturday April 23, 2022 @01:15PM (#31136152)
And it seems that it doesn’t behave that way in every program. Firefox seems to be doing it correctly (most of the time anyway)
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by fauigerzigerk on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @10:03AM (#31002894)
Exactly, and believe it or not, this strange little inconsistency is the only thing I still can't get used to after using macOS for ~15 years.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by dvngnt_ on Monday April 11, 2022 @11:01PM (#30998094)
except windows is still king because the preview shows the instance instead of an application
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by boardwaalk on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:08AM (#30999184)
Cmd tilde instantly switches between windows, so there is no preview and so your comment doesn’t really make sense.

If you’re talking about cmd-tab, personally I’ll take big recognizable icons than thumbnails with minuscule text and such any day.

And mission control will give you windows previews if you want them.

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by dsego on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @04:00AM (#30999836)
ctrl+up / ctrl+down
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by touristtam on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @08:24AM (#31001641)
Ctrl+Down is useful for navigating intra application, but Ctrl+Up is a ridiculous mess.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by neoneye2 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @06:03AM (#31000607)
I prefer binding "Move focus to next window" to the F12 key. Since Cmd+` is a hard keyboard combo on non-american keyboards.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by pdpi on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @07:19AM (#31001062)
I kind of gave up on non-US keyboards.

The Portuguese layout sucks horribly for programming, especially on the Mac (brackets in horrible places), and the U.K. layout (where I’m based) sucks horribly for writing Portuguese in. The US international just works for all my purposes (including writing tiny amounts of other languages besides Portuguese and English)

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by ngcazz on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @09:34AM (#31002491)
Just checking you're aware that dead keys for all Portuguese diacritics are available in the UK PC layout - alt+e (´), alt+n (˜), alt+\ (`), alt+c (ç), alt+i (ˆ)

Because I never went back to the Portuguese layout after finding those key combinations.

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by BlueTemplar on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @09:06AM (#31002114)
Have you tried this one ?

http://norme-azerty.fr/en/

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by rodelrod on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @09:35AM (#31002500)
That looks like an "AZERTY International", with no advantage over the Portuguese layout for programming, and no advantage over "US International" for typing languages other than French. It does look like an improvement over traditional AZERTY!

My choice is "US International with AltGr deadkeys". The deadkey behaviour in simple "US International" is very annoying for programming: you have to double-tap every key that could be an accent, such as single quotes or backquotes.

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by BlueTemplar on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @10:34AM (#31003295)
> no advantage over "US International" for typing languages other than French

Uh, did you not even bother to click on the link or something ??

The easy access to all Greek characters (and more math symbols) alone is great if you work in a math-related field !

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by rodelrod on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @12:44PM (#31005064)
Yes I clicked but didn't notice the Greek overlay. It's neat. I imagine that it can be useful for math, if you're not using something like LaTeX or Emacs already. I even have something similar in my custom layout, although it seldom gets any use. That does not make it any better for programming, nor for typing in Portuguese (or even Greek).

Look, I think it's great that this thing exists and grateful that you mentioned it. I may even suggest it to some of the French-speaking juniors I work with.

It does not, however, address the issues of the person you were replying to. And I know because I'm in a similar position to them.

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by dsego on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @03:59AM (#30999830)
Not only trackpad, you can use ctrl+down to show all windows of the current app and ctrl+up to see all windows.
[deleted]
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by nneonneo on Monday April 11, 2022 @08:00PM (#30996833)
Yeah. It might be different on a non-US keyboard layout, though. It switches between windows of the current app, so it will only do anything if you have more than one window open in the current app.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by samatman on Monday April 11, 2022 @07:50PM (#30996758)
I have a few workflow solutions to this, but Control Down-Arrow or three finger swipe down is the most common.

Also, windows are in a stack from least to most recently put in front, so if I know something is toward the back I start with command-~.

I also happen to believe that there is such a thing as having too many browser windows open, so when these strategies start to become unmanageable, I will close some. The Expose for browser windows takes up to twelve before it needs to make the icons really small, that's a reasonable limit for me, especially given both tabs and tab groups (which I'm increasingly making good use of).

To be clear, this is a workflow, not a workaround: unlike focus follows mouse being impossible, I'm content and productive handling the browser this way.

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by wlesieutre on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:19PM (#30997838)
And if you have so many windows open that it becomes difficult to manage, usually you can sort them into virtual desktops
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by mechanical_bear on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:18AM (#31003849)
I have 409 tabs open at the moment… (more on my desktop computer)
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by perryizgr8 on Monday April 11, 2022 @09:17PM (#30997403)
It doesn't work out well. This is an area of macos that grinds my gears daily. It gets even messier if you maximize an app, or use multiple desktops.

Often I need to quickly switch between a particular terminal window to a particular browser window. But it's always a gamble. I don't know what I'm gonna get when I press cmd+tab. It may show the correct window, or it may show all terminal windows, or it may even do absolutely nothing.

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by danaris on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @10:54AM (#31003542)
It's definitely not a gamble.

When you press Cmd-Tab, first of all, if you hold it down for longer than about a second, it shows you the icons of the currently-open applications, letting you select which application you switch to.

Whenever you use Cmd-Tab to switch to an open application, it will always foreground all the open windows of that application that are on the active desktop/space.

When I'm doing something like you describe, where I know I'll be switching back and forth between a specific pair of windows of different applications (and I have a bunch of other windows of those applications open), my usual practice is either to size and position them where I can just see both at the same time (large screens ftw), or I'll pull them off into a separate space where Cmd-Tabbing between the two applications will be guaranteed to switch between just those two windows.

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by fiddlerwoaroof on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:35PM (#30997938)
So, I have the opposite problem when I go back to using Linux/Windows: I mentally file all my windows into application buckets and it makes the alt-tab switcher for not-macOS seem to pick a random window.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by perryizgr8 on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:59PM (#30998083)
I don't understand what's random about always switching to the last window you were using. It's a simple rule, no exceptions. Macos window/app switching rules are too complicated and full of special cases, which makes it harder to integrate into your work flow.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by fiddlerwoaroof on Monday April 11, 2022 @11:06PM (#30998124)
Because, basically, I don’t think in terms of switching windows, I think in terms of switching tasks/apps and some apps/tasks happen to have a bunch of windows.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by jbverschoor on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @03:25AM (#30999667)
I dunno. I just want a focus group on a desktop, where switching is related to the project I’m doing. For example one desktop vscode, iterm, browser. And another desktop about productivity.

The problem with switching is that you quickly get too many windows / apps.

I tried to have a user per group, but that does T work fast enough.

The best setup for me is 2 or 3 machines, linked with synergykvm

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by perryizgr8 on Monday April 11, 2022 @11:11PM (#30998163)
It's still easy to understand because it is just one rule, with no exceptions. Comparatively the OSX model is filled with arbitrary rules that depend on many factors (is another window of this app open in a maximised mode?, does the last desktop you were on have no windows?).

Even if, with time, you have become comfortable with it, it is still a more convoluted way to manage tasks.

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by wtetzner on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @01:00AM (#30998808)
Simple isn’t the same as convenient.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by jeltz on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @06:16AM (#31000680)
Sure, but Mac's solution is neither. At least in the modern world where almost everything is done in your browser.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by wtetzner on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @11:46AM (#31016097)
I certainly don't do everything in a browser. I usually have at most 2 browser windows open (usually just one). For important browser-based apps, I just pin the tabs.

I actually find the macOS model to be more convenient (even though I didn't like it when I first tried it). It makes it very easy to switch away from an app that has multiple windows.

To be honest, I'm not sure there's an objectively better solution. I think it all comes down to the workflow and habits you've built around the model you use most often.

It's also pretty convenient to be able to switch between browser windows using cmd+`. I don't need to worry about getting other apps in between my browser windows.

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by flenserboy on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @08:23AM (#31001626)
I bet a good percentage of Mac users use actual applications for their work instead of browser-based app facsimiles. That's what comes of having a (reasonably) consistent, stable OS to work from.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by fiddlerwoaroof on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:14AM (#31003784)
So, my workflow basically involves switching between terminal, browser and emacs. With macOS’s scheme, if I switch from emacs->browser, I can always hit switch back to emacs without having to parse the switcher, even if I’ve opened a new browser window for some reason. On windows/linux, when I open a new browser window, alt-tab goes back to another browser window, not back to the other “task”.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by throwanem on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:42PM (#30997974)
This is the problem at root, yeah.

Application switching makes sense in a world where the application is the locus of interest and you tend to spend a long time in each app, only rarely switching to another. We haven't lived in that world for a very long time.

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by jeltz on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @06:11AM (#31000648)
As a lobg time on and off Mac user: nnt very well. The Windows/Xfce method of switching between all Windows within the current workspace fits the modern way if working much better.

Yes, Mac also supports switching between Windows in the same application but that is rarely what I want either since I am a heavy user of virtual desktops

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by kevincox on Monday April 11, 2022 @08:13PM (#30996939)
I agree. While I admit that I have only lightly used macOS but for my last job I find it hard to get used to this multidimensional switching. I think it might have made sense where you had a few documents and a few emails and a few folders. But now I have 3 browser windows and 3 terminals and my brain can't get used to the fact that a video call window is in the same group as my reference docs but my text editor is in a different group with my build output. Maybe I should use a different terminal emulator for my editor but that just seems like fighting the window system.

Or maybe after a couple more years of macOS and I would get used to it.

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by sooheon on Monday April 11, 2022 @08:41PM (#30997164)
It's just the difference between a depth=2 tree and a flat list. What's better depends on your access patterns, but at least semantically, the tree makes a lot more sense to me.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by philsnow on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @03:12AM (#30999584)
I just wish "spaces" worked like xmonad workspaces [0], specifically that in xmonad there are some number of workspaces (9 by default) and each display is a view into _any_ of those. Macos has a checkbox "Displays have separate Spaces", and neither checked nor unchecked gives the behavior I want.

Let's say I have just two monitors. That box being checked means I have spaces A1 A2 .. An and B1 B2 .. Bn, and monitor A can display any of the "A" spaces and monitor B can display any of the "B" spaces. But if I want everything from B2 to get displayed on monitor A, I have to create a new space An+1 and drag everything over one window at a time, like a cave man.

Unchecked means I have spaces AB1 AB2 .. ABn, and switching spaces switches both monitors at the same time! So if I want to see the A side of AB1 and the B side of AB2 at the same time, I'm out of luck.

Xmonad workspaces allow me to do any of the above behaviors (oh, and it switches workspaces instantaneously, instead of this left/right spatial thing macos insists on, I guess because of the trackpad swipe gestures). One of these days I need to try to make Hammerspoon fake workspaces in a way that works for me, because (like the OP) this is by far the least comfortable thing about working in macos for me.

[0] https://xmonad.org/tour.html#using-other-workspaces

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by sooheon on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @08:38AM (#31001797)
Yeah this works because of indexed access. The tradeoff is you get a limited number of spaces, and you require a much larger key binding surface area. Like how indexes take memory.

If your state is A1/B2 (two monitors A and B displaying spaces 1 and 2 respectively), and you're working in A1 and want to switch B2 to B3, how do you "focus" on display B before moving spaces to B3? If you just press mod-3 I assume you'd get A3/B2. Do you have to alt-tab until you focus a window that is currently in B and then mod-3?

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by philsnow on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:37AM (#31004114)
In my xmonad setup only one window (and thus screen) has the focus, so I would need to hit the key that switches focus to my B monitor (for me that's Mod4+e, B monitor is Mod4+q) and then Mod4+3.

True about indexed access; some other window managers have natively built in "tagged workspaces" where windows have tags and the "chat workspace" is just "all windows that have the chat tag". You can (probably? I've never used them) bind numbers to tags permanently or temporarily but you wouldn't be limited to 0-9. I never bothered trying to copy that setup in xmonad because I never used more than 5 or 7 workspaces.

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by danaris on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @10:45AM (#31003437)
> But if I want everything from B2 to get displayed on monitor A, I have to create a new space An+1 and drag everything over one window at a time, like a cave man.

That's...not true, though? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're after...

When you activate Mission Control (not sure offhand what the default shortcut is; I have mine set to Ctrl-Up, but I might have customized it), you can drag entire spaces between monitors. I do this regularly.

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by philsnow on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:39AM (#31004135)
Ah, I had no idea you could do that. I don't generally use the expose / mission control swipe gestures. ... Actually I just realized I haven't bothered using spaces in years (since before Catalina I think), maybe I should try again. Thanks!
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by FranksTV on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @02:25AM (#31011760)
You can drag whole screens from one monitor to the next. Open command center and then just drag the whole screen over in the top bar.

For me it's a two-finger double tap on the mouse (I think--not at my computer at the moment.)

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by fiddlerwoaroof on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:32PM (#30997926)
The browser really breaks the paradigm. I think the ideal would actually be a browser that had a window per site and an “application” per category of site.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by kitsunesoba on Monday April 11, 2022 @07:42PM (#30996677)
This is where the value of electron wrappers and web apps installed as PWAs comes in. It offloads app management duties from your browser and puts them back in the hands of the OS.

The former of those two can also get rid of redundant menubars (as seen in e.g. Figma) which is a nice bonus.

Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by DiggyJohnson on Monday April 11, 2022 @07:50PM (#30996754)
Exactly. When the Electron-apps-are--awful-compared-to-desktop-apps conversation comes up, I'm always frustrsted to not see this perspective, because it really reframes the real potential value of Electron implementations away from (from this perspective, unfair) critical comparison to implementing internet services and applications as true desktop apps.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by prmoustache on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @08:26AM (#31001664)
I quite like the epiphany / gnome-web functionnality to create "apps" out of separate website. Too bad it doesn't work with msteams and I wish firefox had that function as well so I can still use my extensions on thoses.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by robszumski on Monday April 11, 2022 @08:50PM (#30997222)
I love doing this but my personal hell is when my Google account(s) are constantly signed out of my PWA for Meet, Chat, Work Gmail, Personal Gmail 1, Personal Gmail 2.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by rictic on Monday April 11, 2022 @07:40PM (#30996659)
Desktop PWAs and "open as own window" shortcuts help a lot with this, letting you (from a UI perspective at least) run a web app as though it was its own application rather than within the browser.
Re:Impressions from a first-time Mac user by fomine3 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @12:07AM (#30998498)
"Create shortcut" is heavily underrated feature on Chromium. Firefox dropped similar feature. https://support.google.com/chrome_webstore/answer/3060053