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Re:Finland and Sweden set to join NATO as soon as summer by ghostwriter on Monday April 11, 2022 @12:36PM (#30991259)
on the other hand, if NATO gets into a conflict with China over Taiwan, there's a highly chance that Finland and Sweden would have to send their troops to fight and die there too. It serves geo-political interests of the US, but whether it serves interests of Finland and Sweden is a question for their citizens to answer.
Re:Finland and Sweden set to join NATO as soon as summer by ceejayoz on Monday April 11, 2022 @02:11PM (#30992554)
NATO doesn't even cover Hawaii, let alone Taiwan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty#Article_...

> Article 6 states that the treaty covers only member states' territories in Europe and North America, Turkey and islands in the North Atlantic north of the Tropic of Cancer, plus French Algeria. It was the opinion in August 1965 of the US State Department, the US Defense Department and the legal division of NATO that an attack on the U.S. state of Hawaii would not trigger the treaty, but an attack on the other 49 would.

Re:Finland and Sweden set to join NATO as soon as summer by ghostwriter on Monday April 11, 2022 @02:13PM (#30992571)
Was it covering Yugoslavia back in 90s?
Re:Finland and Sweden set to join NATO as soon as summer by ceejayoz on Monday April 11, 2022 @02:44PM (#30992912)
Irrelevant. That was a voluntary intervention, not an invocation of the Treaty's mutual defense aspects. Individual NATO members were not required to participate; three (Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland) did not.

A similar scenario with Taiwan would not mean "Finland and Sweden would have to send their troops to fight and die there too" as you asserted; they'd have the option to join in if they saw fit.

Re:Finland and Sweden set to join NATO as soon as summer by ghostwriter on Monday April 11, 2022 @03:16PM (#30993381)
> Irrelevant. That was a voluntary intervention, not an invocation of the Treaty's mutual defense aspects. Individual NATO members were not required to participate; three (Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland) did not.

I'm not saying it would be a verbal and written requirement to participate, and yet, they might have to for other political reasons, like a supply of additional defensive equipment or maintenance programs. For instance, some countries did participate in wars on the side of NATO even though they are not even a part of the alliance. All at the expense of human lives and taxpayers' money [1][2].

Before you say that the US interventions are not NATO interventions, could you name at least one instance from this list [3] where the US was not an active participant of and was actually disapproving of other members' actions? I'm asking because there's a valid growing sentiment with an element of truth in it that NATO without the US is not a potent alliance.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukrain...

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukrain...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_operations

Re:Finland and Sweden set to join NATO as soon as summer by ceejayoz on Monday April 11, 2022 @03:22PM (#30993455)
> For instance, some countries did participate in wars on the side of NATO even though they are not even a part of the alliance.

Well, now you're arguing something entirely different - that NATO will rope you in without being a member. Hard to say it's a downside of joining if it happens anyways.

Re:Finland and Sweden set to join NATO as soon as summer by ghostwriter on Monday April 11, 2022 @03:25PM (#30993491)
yes, I'm asking because there's a valid growing sentiment with an element of truth in it that NATO without the US military influence is not a potent alliance.
Re:Finland and Sweden set to join NATO as soon as summer by ceejayoz on Monday April 11, 2022 @03:35PM (#30993644)
No, you said this:

> if NATO gets into a conflict with China over Taiwan, there's a highly chance that Finland and Sweden would have to send their troops to fight and die there too

Nothing in NATO's organization or the Treaty itself supports that assertion; in fact, it explicitly says otherwise.

Re:Finland and Sweden set to join NATO as soon as summer by klawcode on Monday April 11, 2022 @03:15PM (#30993362)
NATO also only covers the North Atlantic Area - this is explicit.

https://www.westernjournal.com/nato-loophole-attack-hawaii/

Re:Finland and Sweden set to join NATO as soon as summer by dragonwriter on Monday April 11, 2022 @03:20PM (#30993432)
> Was it covering Yugoslavia back in 90s?

Yugoslavia was not an Article 5 action, it arose out of Article 4 regional security consultations. It is important to remember that NATO is not, even in theory, a “defensive alliance” it is a regional security organization with a mutual defense commitment.

Re:Finland and Sweden set to join NATO as soon as summer by formerly_proven on Monday April 11, 2022 @01:00PM (#30991677)
How does NATO "get into a conflict" between China (not a NATO member, last I checked) and Taiwan (not even an UN observer)?
Re:Finland and Sweden set to join NATO as soon as summer by bayesian_horse on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:31AM (#30999334)
The US would have to make a case to the rest of the members that it has been attacked under article 5 and the rest of the members have to agree.

There are a lot of conceivable scenarios where the US would not make the case and even where the other members might disagree.

Re:Finland and Sweden set to join NATO as soon as summer by klawcode on Monday April 11, 2022 @03:03PM (#30993207)
I'm pretty sure a lot of people think NATO == US Empire and Interests. Its simply not true, and this is a pretty great example of how much disinformation and FUD certain "interests" have created around NATO.

Hawaii isn't even covered under NATO, even if someone attacked the US:

https://www.westernjournal.com/nato-loophole-attack-hawaii/

Re:Finland and Sweden set to join NATO as soon as summer by tsupiroti on Monday April 11, 2022 @01:16PM (#30991897)
Taiwan is not a member of NATO, and neither are other US allies in east Asia.
Re:Finland and Sweden set to join NATO as soon as summer by ghostwriter on Monday April 11, 2022 @02:12PM (#30992567)
Yugoslavia was not a NATO member either.