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Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by goodpoint on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:17PM (#30971076)
Decades of evidence indicates how bad stroads, parking and car culture in general are for society.
Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by systemvoltage on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:25PM (#30971146)
Most HN users, especially American users, don't know that EU has 292 million cars. 780 cars/1000 capita. USA is not much different: 816 cars/1000 capita.

I live in Bay Area and people here think that EU is a utopia where cars do not exist and everyone just walks. They have a cartoonish caricature of EU in their minds.

Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by rtlfe on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:30PM (#30971208)
This data is old, but shows that despite similar numbers of vehicles people in other countries drive many fewer miles. https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar4.htm
Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by rootusrootus on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:05PM (#30972058)
America is twice as big as Europe by area, so driving more miles on average doesn't seem surprising.
Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by rtlfe on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:37PM (#30972312)
The size of the country is irrelevant. The vast majority of personal car trips are within a metropolitan area.
Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by systemvoltage on Saturday April 09, 2022 @10:45PM (#30974047)
Then you shouldn't be drawing conclusions from average miles driven. That doesn't further your point, I don't know if we have data for median miles driven per capita.
Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by dghlsakjg on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:37PM (#30971273)
Most Americans have a bike in the garage, but that certainly doesn’t make us the Netherlands.

I would be curious to see what the usage patterns are. A quick google shows that the average mileage for Europeans is around 7k, while the average American drives 12k. So it would seem that Europeans drive about 60% less despite the same access to vehicles…

Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by systemvoltage on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:39PM (#30971297)
Color me surprised. USA is vast.
Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by user_7832 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:28PM (#30971191)
780 cars/capita is pretty high lol... Is it supposed to be per 1000?

Btw it does depend where you live but in the Netherlands you can get by without a car mostly fine if you live in a city. The biggest issue is transporting larger goods (basically any IKEA trip), but it's certainly possible (eg by renting).

Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by bombcar on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:35PM (#30971258)
The main difference I’ve noticed is that I have met people from various walks of life in Europe who literally couldn’t drive (no license) and got around fine.

Only in New York have I met someone like that here; even those who majority took public transit had cars or at least a license.

Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by rowanajmarshall on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:48PM (#30971902)
I'm in my late 20s, live in London, and that describes most people I know. It's not worth owning a car here, so people just don't end up taking their test. Even if I wanted to take it, I wouldn't get a car so would get rusty real quick.
Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by systemvoltage on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:33PM (#30971233)
Lol corrected. Yes, 1000 people. I just googled for it, but having travelled extensively in Europe, I wanted to comment on what people of Bay Area really think about Europe. It is very...VERY distorted.
Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by k8sToGo on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:27PM (#30971178)
Yes, but Bay Area and Europe are different scale :)

While I was still living in the Bay Area, once I thought I could walk from the car dealership to the rental car company, because on google maps it looked quite close... big mistake.

Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by systemvoltage on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:38PM (#30971279)
I live in Oakland. You'll find Oakland to be more walkable than the rest of the bay area (although you'll get robbed by the end of your walk, but that's not the point here). A rather strange concoction of terrible local politics, great food, crime through the roof, homelessness everywhere, distorted views of the rest of the world and even the rest of the bay area, very smart people working on great ideas, very smart people on ideological crusade, deep history of multiculturalism and great beer.

Oh, and potholes. I feel like it is a secret plot by the city to punish car owners.

Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by whiteboardr on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:20PM (#30971102)
You mean urban societies?

Where do your groceries come from and how should these people taking care of ensuring you get to eat get around?

Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by throw0101a on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:50PM (#30971375)
> Where do your groceries come from and how should these people taking care of ensuring you get to eat get around?

Obviously before cars were invented it was impossible for people in rural areas to bring food to people in urban areas, so all the people in urban areas starved to death. /s

Humans managed to feed urban areas for millennia before the internal combustion engine was invented. I'm sure if city design was changed such that people could walk, cycle, and take public transit to work and to shops, various ways of getting goods (including food) into urban areas will be thought of.

And putting emphasis on urban layouts where people can get (say) 90% of their day-to-day needs satisfied without relying on automobiles does not preclude cars being available for the remaining 10%. Such layouts simply turn cars from being a need-to-have to a nice-to-have item in one's life.

We're talking about changing the emphasis of urban design. Most "bans" on automobiles focus on person transportation vehicles, and not eliminated commercial delivery. It may in fact be easier for deliveries since all the single-passenger cars will be reduced, thus potentially lowering general traffic volumes.

See the Not Just Bikes channel for various videos by a Canadian who grew up in a car-centric suburb to people-centric Amsterdam:

* https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes/videos

Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by Toutouxc on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:31PM (#30971212)
Obviously, the whole anti-car movement, sentiment, whatever we call it, is mostly centered around urban societies. You don't see many stroads, parking lots the size of an European town and multi-hour traffic jams full of single-occupant SUVs among the wheat fields in the middle of nowhere.

It would be great if even rural communities didn't need expensive, polluting cars to be able to live their lives, but AFAIK they're not a priority now. Cities are where it's all falling apart.

Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by epistasis on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:50PM (#30971385)
If there's a stroad, it's a suburban society, not an urban society.

Urban societies have existed for millennia, and before cars, people weren't all riding around on horses to accomplish their daily life. Personal transport was the exception, not the rule.

People in the US think that stroads and roads and cars are the only way to live, because we have outlawed other forms of living. Our lack of low-car city designs isn't because people don't want them, or because they aren't conducive to modern life, they simply don't exist because they have been banned from the marketplace.

Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by throwawayboise on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:42PM (#30971858)
Yeah we used to live that way. Most people didn't like it and bought a car when their personal economic circumstances allowed for it.

If people really wanted to live packed together like a hive of insects, we would not have suburbs and small towns. People live in high density situations because they have (or perceive that they have) no other choice.

Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by asdff on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:26PM (#30972228)
Must be why those cramped penthouses in manhattan are so cheap, right? Who would want to live like an insect after all? Can't be any benefits to that, nope.
Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by gravypod on Saturday April 09, 2022 @06:46PM (#30972897)
It can be both. We can have scarcity of access to a resource (entertainment, dining, culture, etc) which makes another resource (housing) much more expensive. There can be a relation to what people want access to and where people need to live.

Places like NY have extremely high densities of cultural resources and extremely low densities of housing. This doesn't mean people like the housing, it just means people like the cultural aspects.

This begs a big question: why do we pack all of our cultural institutions into a small area? Is it more cost effective? I would have a hard time buying that due to how many restaurants, businesses, etc close in Manhattan for not being able to catch up with rent. I think it's a cyclical issue we see in other areas. Why is Shenzhen the "only" place that manufactures electronics? It is likely a network effect causing this. Factory A can sell to B, C, and D which can all sell a similar fan out. The same likely happens with cultural institutions. Starting a restaurant supply company? Well, you'll look for the place with the most restaurants. Starting a restaurant? Look for the place with the most supply companies. Want to find a place to live? Look for the place that has the best optimization of {Rent, Entertainment, Food, Employment}. For me and many others: this is NYC (actually NJ with a commute to the city).

A bigger follow up question: Does it need to be this way? I don't think it does. Living in Manhattan/Brooklyn/etc is way more expensive than living in the suburbs of NJ even factoring in double taxes and commute. I currently pay $1,500/month in rent for a 1br 1bath. A friend who lives in Brooklyn (with a 15-20 min shorter commute) pays about $3,500/month and needs to pay $300/month in an MTA card while also spending way more on groceries and cost of living stuff than I do.

If you owned your residence in a suburb even with taxes my guess is it becomes much more financially beneficial even if you need a car. If we got a little smarter and built trains, street cars, buses, subways, etc in suburban areas with sprawl we may not even need cars for most Americans.

If we have separate single-family dwellings than the damage fires and poor maintenance can cause are limited (blast radius). We can, as a society, gradually "roll-forward" new standards in electrical codes / eco friendly by renovating homes as people move.

The only reason we don't have a single family home to give to everyone who wants one is because we haven't built them. Once everything is said and done though the cost of building an apartment complex in NYC is not much cheaper once you factor in the huge fees for doing any sort of construction in NYC.

I personally think that if we, as a country, decided to build walkable small towns that were interconnected by fast moving and reliable public transit and forced businesses who could work remotely to do so many people would much rather live there than in the city.

Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by epistasis on Saturday April 09, 2022 @09:18PM (#30973650)
If people really, actually, preferred that the suburban life, then why does it have to be enforced by law?

Something doesn't add up.

Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by txru on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:24PM (#30971134)
An inner city road doesn't need to be 4 lanes wide if it's primarily carrying small box trucks to local stores.

And I think it's pretty apparent that quite a lot of restaurant employees rely on public transit, or feed a substantial portion of their income to one car, whose breakdown causes loss of employment. Forcing people to need cars from arbitrary point to point is a regressive tax.

Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by rtlfe on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:28PM (#30971190)
> Where do your groceries come from and how should these people taking care of ensuring you get to eat get around?

What are you trying to say? You obviously don't need freeways and 6 lane roads running through city centers to deliver supplies to stores and restaurants.

Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by sandwichinvest on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:38PM (#30971284)
My groceries come from farms, which I assume transport their food in individual SUVs.
Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by tifik on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:27PM (#30971181)
Long distance logistics (should) use roads. Not streets. Urban societies should develop around streets, not roads.
Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by user_7832 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:26PM (#30971156)
I don't exactly get your point. Stroads are generally more common in residential areas to the best of my limited knowledge. The bulk of commerical transport likely occurs on much larger roads and highways where trucks mainly ply. Short of last mile transport there isn't much overlap.
Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by quantumwannabe on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:26PM (#30971698)
"Stroads" are in commercial areas by definition. A typical neighborhood designed after the car became popular does not have any multi lane roads inside of it. It will have them around it, but people who live in the neighborhood will not be directly on the arterial roads. The larger road used for commercial transport in low density areas is either a "stroad" or highway.

Please take five minutes to look on Google Maps before commenting about neighborhood design in a country 5000 miles away.

Re:Parking kills businesses, not bikes or buses by vmception on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:26PM (#30971155)
urban societies built within the 20th century are very different than urban societies built before then

they both have roads, the only difference is that the 20th century ones were built around car culture. car culture is not talking about people delivering food for the residents.