All credible and verified evidence points to your skepticism being badly misplaced. In this case, we have satellite photos of the Russians from March 10th through March 31st having dug a large at mass grave site. Reuters journalists later confirmed seeing dead civilians along the roads of Bucha, some with their hands tied behind their backs and bullet wounds to the head being shot at close range. After the Russian's original shock and awe failed, they have restored to their tried and true strategy to terrorize, demoralize, and depopulate key cities in Ukraine (a strategy they've used in multiple wars including this one), which is how the Russians are attempting to "profiteer" from mass civilian slaughter.

https://www.newsweek.com/bucha-massacre-images-show-mass-gra...

These are Ukrainians found tortured, mutilated, raped and killed, not Russians. There is plenty of evidence in the linked article. Please don't do this here.

Though the early information states that there were bodies of "hundreds of Russian soldiers", found when the Ukrainian forces eventually arrived to the area.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. One would expect to find bodies of Russian soldiers wherever the invasion is happening, especially so near Kyiv.

Good thing there are Russian soldiers dead in Ukraine, I hope many more get killed until they leave the fucking country

Cheering someone’s death is sick, regardless of. You may want to rethink your statement

you may want stop finding excuses for russian crimes as you do so abundantly.

In a country with 20-40% of ethnic Russians, and ~10% other non-Ukranians (anything from greeks to tatars), I'd say odds are far from zero some of those people are definitely not Ukranian.

You could tell a Russian from a Ukrainian in that video? I can't tell them apart even in person.

> Please don't do this here.

What makes you think you can give advices on what people should or shouldn't do here?

If you don't need proper investigation to figure out who actually did that - it's your choice. But don't try to censor those who think not like you.

You have a long history of coming to the defense of what is now an international pariah that has lied about the purpose of a troop build up, 200,000 strong which has now senselessly displaced millions and murdered thousands more.

Proper investigations will be done and Russia will be brought to justice in front of a court of its peers. Defending this monstrous state with your "concerned" deflections while mothers and children lay raped and dead on the earth of Ukraine is not defensible. Please don't do this here.

It's flattering to find you have spent some time going thru my history, although if you have tried to think critically instead of throwing emotional messages, I would consider that to be more useful activity.

Proper investigations means independent and not biased, which is clearly not the case for you and those who blame without any evidence, just because media provided a nice picture. Will it ever be the case and will russian forces be there or someone else is to be found. Unfortunately massive campaign on media blaming russia for that hints us the proper investigation will never take place.

And lastly - luckily it's not your private space, so please don't behave like you own it. If you enjoy echo-chambers there are plenty of places for that. HN is one of few where people freely express substantiated POV.

> Proper investigations will be done and Russia will be brought to justice in front of a court of its peers

As the US passed a law to invade the Hague in case the ICC ever tries to accuse the US of war crimes, I'm assuming the US is not a "peer".

> Defending this monstrous state with your "concerned" deflections while mothers and children lay raped and dead on the earth of Ukraine is not defensible. Please don't do this here.

Israel was murdering Palestinian children in the West Bank and Gaza last year, backed by the US. Accounts of that posted here which managed not to be flagged were heavily "defended" with concerned deflections, where are your comments all over those threads to not deflect and do that here? Or the ongoing Saudi massacres of Yemeni, which the US backs and are happening now. Or the US drone attack on children in Kabul last August? When are those war crime trials starting?

Excellent points, but he seems to be a typical product of mass media. If it's not reiterated on mass media, it doesn't exist.

Ignorance is bliss indeed :(

I've called out whataboutism here before and I'll do it again here. It offers no solutions, only deflections and tarpits of inaction.

No one is saying any of those atrocities that occurred were defensible, least of all me.

But I am deeply concerned by the defense of an imperial power in its twilight that believes invasion in the 21st century is a sound method for solving disputes. Russia is the aggressor here. Apologies are not needed for its behavior or appropriate when Mariupol has been turned into a new Grozny and Odessa is next.

The "whataboutism" defense has basically become codeword for "how dare you point out our hypocrisy!" Especially for people in South America or the Middle East, why should they care about war crimes in Europe when Europeans/Americans have been committing war crimes or supporting people who do in their regions?

This isn't the topic of discussion of this thread. What do you propose to achieve with this line of questioning?

I live in the EU. Most nations of the EU (all?) have quit invading other sovereign nations to solve their disputes, especially overt landgrabs. What exactly do you intend to convey by pointing out hypocrisy here? Do you have a solution to propose? Should we/I stop caring about an aggressive state power at our doorstep because hypocrisy exists?

>This isn't the topic of discussion of this thread.

This is true, my intention isn't to derail the topic of the thread. Just pointing out that "whataboutism" is often just a defense for "stop pointing out my hypocrisy".

>Most nations of the EU (all?) have quit invading other sovereign nations to solve their disputes, especially overt landgrabs.

Unless its in Palestine or Western Sahara?

>Do you have a solution to propose?

Yes, perhaps if the West wasn't so hypocritical on ignoring its own numerous war crimes, then countries like China/India and entire regions like South America/Middle East would be more willing to support the West in conflicts like Ukraine. Its obviously too late for that now, but something to keep in mind for the future.

Its a tangential point, but you can't expect people to help you or care when you refuse to show them the same sympathy.

Are Israel and Morocco in the EU?

You attribute too much intellect to the grunt on the ground. Nobody thinks like that after fighting in the war, they might die tomorrow. Who else might have "done it"? Ukrainians themselves? What a very bad joke.

That's right, although we need not to let emotions prevail and at least ask for independent investigation.

I have no knowledge who did it because I haven't seen any investigation yet. And yes, I wouldn't rule out anything. War is ugly, people do ugly things. It's not a fight of angels with demons.

exactly, the only grunts with intellect and smarts are seen here placing a dummy AA system in a residential area so that it will become clear hopefully that the russians are needlessly bombing civilians.

https://twitter.com/gbazov/status/1510773542618550280?s=20

Putting aside the need for investigation I fail to understand how it "wouldn't be Russia in any way."

Perhaps you won't be failing to understand if you read it once again - the part "wouldn't be Russia in any way" refers to benefitting from crimes. I never said Russia actually commit or didn't commit those crimes, it's simply not enough evidence to say for sure.

You do realise Russia caused this right? As in, there wouldn’t have been mass executions in Bucha if Russia hadn’t invaded. I don’t much care who did it (ignoring the obvious most likely culprit), the fact is Putin killed those people either once or twice removed.

Yes let’s have an independent investigation, call up Putin and ask him to withdraw from Ukraine and pause his attack, and submit DNA samples and verified identities of all his soldiers so the investigators can have a good look.