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Re:The singularity is close? by slibhb on Thursday March 31, 2022 @08:30PM (#30873887)
> It says, see, it’s absurd to think a person in a room with a stack of symbols could emulate intelligence.

That's not at all what it says. It says:

1. Assume a computer program can pass a turing test

2. Convert the computer program into a list of steps that a human in a room can follow

3. Put a human in the room. Pass him a slip of paper with Chinese writing. Have him follow the steps to generate a response.

4. Now consider, once you've done this, does the human in the room following those steps understand Chinese?

Searle's answer is obviously not, from which he deduces that the computer program doesn't understand Chinese either.

Re:The singularity is close? by simonh on Thursday March 31, 2022 @08:46PM (#30873990)
Right, but the person in the room isn’t the computer program. He’s not even the whole computer. He’s just a component of the system. It’s the system that we should consider as understanding Chinese, not just a piece of it. He’s following a set of instructions so he doesn’t even have all of those in mind at once either.

By abstracting the system as a man in a room were distracted to think we’re considering the system when we’re not. If the man in the room is one of billions of men, at massive scale which is a more realistic model, that becomes obvious.

Re:The singularity is close? by slibhb on Thursday March 31, 2022 @09:00PM (#30874083)
Yes, one response to the thought experiment is "the whole system understands Chinese". I don't find that response convincing. Do you really think a book with instructions in a room plus a man to carry them out understands Chinese?

The thought experiment hinges on the concept of understanding. If you want to argue against Searle, and you can, your best bet is to attack that concept, to argue that "understanding" is an illusion or that it's nonsensical. This is what philosophers like Daniel Dennet have done.

Re:The singularity is close? by simonh on Thursday March 31, 2022 @09:23PM (#30874201)
> Do you really think a book with instructions in a room plus a man to carry them out understands Chinese?

Again with the scale misdirection. Are you really sure a room the size of Jupiter with a rule book the size of many libraries, full of trillions of people following the rules, shuffling quadrillions of symbols for millions of years definitely can’t ever understand Chinese? Not in any sense?

Re:The singularity is close? by slibhb on Thursday March 31, 2022 @09:30PM (#30874236)
You're bringing up scale, not me. The book can contain 10 billion lines of instructions. That's a lot of "scale".

The thought experiment is about the concept of understanding/intelligence/consciousness/whatever. It has nothing to do with scale.

Re:The singularity is close? by simonh on Thursday March 31, 2022 @09:40PM (#30874294)
If it has nothing to do with scale, then why doesn’t Serle us a realistic example of a vast room, why a book not a library, why a man not an army?

I’m bringing up scale because I’m pointing out how it’s being used.

Re:The singularity is close? by slibhb on Thursday March 31, 2022 @09:48PM (#30874348)
If you insert the adjective "vast" before room, then you get The Vast Chinese Room thought experiment and nothing changes.
Re:The singularity is close? by simonh on Thursday March 31, 2022 @10:08PM (#30874485)
A lot of people find it credible that a hugely complex fast computer system could be intelligent. Many of them seem to find it convincing that a man in a room with a book can’t “understand Chinese” when he personally doesn’t. But the only difference between them is scale.
Re:The singularity is close? by slibhb on Thursday March 31, 2022 @10:46PM (#30874698)
> A lot of people find it credible that a hugely complex fast computer system could be intelligent.

But not John Searle...so it seems clear that scale has nothing to do with the thought experiment. For Searle, a vast room or an army of people to carry out instructions make no difference.

> Many of them seem to find it convincing that a man in a room with a book can’t “understand Chinese” when he personally doesn’t

The people who read the thought experiment this way don't understand it. In the thought experiment neither the computer program (no matter how powerful the computer is) nor the man and the room understand Chinese.

> But the only difference between them is scale.

No, the point of putting a man in the room is that we all agree that a human is capable of understanding. From his vantage point in the room, he can see that the program works by executing instructions without any understanding. All the room does is demystify a hypothetical computer program that can pass a turing test.

Searle is not arguing that a machine with understanding/consciousness is impossible. He's arguing against behavioralism ("if it can pass a turing test it understands"). He take the psychological phenomenon of "understanding" (something we're all familiar with) seriously, he thinks it represents a real thing, and that a computer that can pass a turing test doesn't necessarily have it.

Re:The singularity is close? by simonh on Friday April 01, 2022 @03:27AM (#30875966)
I don’t see how that’s different from a neurologist examining a human brain. They can see it’s just cytoplasm and electro chemicals oozing around and firing off signals. None of that looks like it understands anything, any more than the symbols moving around in the Chinese room. They can no more point to the place in the brain that understands things than the guy in the Chinese room holding the book can.
Re:The singularity is close? by slibhb on Friday April 01, 2022 @10:00AM (#30878150)
The difference is that we all have the subjective experience of understanding. When we have a conversation, we experience other people's words as sounds in our heads laden with meaning. We "understand" each word in the sentence, how the words fit together, what they refer to, and so on. We're all familiar with this experience, right? We're doing it right now through the medium of writing.

Searle takes that experience seriously. For him it's real and, in order to have that experience, you need machinery somewhat similiar to what we have. He can't bring himself to believe that a list of instructions and a person dumbly executing them have that sensation of understanding even if they produce the correct output.

Re:The singularity is close? by simonh on Friday April 01, 2022 @11:10AM (#30878899)
I take that experience seriously too. I don't see why a sufficiently advanced artificial system as complex, capable and sophisticated as a human brain could not also have experiences. I don't think he has any good reason to believe otherwise, or any good argument against it. Nothing he says about the mechanisms of the Chinese room can't also be said about the mundane physical mechanisms of neurology.
Re:The singularity is close? by slibhb on Friday April 01, 2022 @12:20PM (#30879897)
> I don't see why a sufficiently advanced artificial system as complex, capable and sophisticated as a human brain could not also have experiences.

Neither does Searle. He says that humans are such machines. Per Searle, if you want to build a system that has subjective experiences of consciousness and understanding, it would have to have physical parts that correspond to some degree to the physical parts that give rise to our subjective experiences (or an animal's subjective experiences). It couldn't be a list of instructions to be executed.

I don't know if Searle is right about this but I find myself unable to dismiss his argument as obviously wrong.

Re:The singularity is close? by simonh on Friday April 01, 2022 @12:43PM (#30880257)
You don't think it's obvious that actual computers and robots have physical parts? I'm sorry, I'm at a loss.
Re:The singularity is close? by tigen on Friday April 01, 2022 @03:44AM (#30876036)
> The people who read the thought experiment this way don't understand it. In the thought experiment neither the computer program (no matter how powerful the computer is) nor the man and the room understand Chinese.

Who says the computer doesn't understand Chinese, though? In this case "the computer" is the system. The program, being the code, isn't a process. The man is acting as a mechanical piece of hardware. But the computer running the program is an active process with state.

I heard a lecture by Searle on this. He mentioned the idea that "the room understands Chinese" and simply dismissed it as absurd without considering it. This is exactly the problem with his argument. Well, that and the casual conflation of the man with the computer as if the CPU hardware is the system.

Re:The singularity is close? by simonh on Friday April 01, 2022 @05:03AM (#30876403)
Right, exactly, it is absurd to think one man in a room with some symbols can generate understanding. But only because of scale, because we imagine a regular sized room, a normal sized book and a table with symbols on it. But it’s absurd because that system is incredibly simple, not due to any actual argument from fundamentals.
Re:The singularity is close? by gilmore606 on Friday April 01, 2022 @02:38AM (#30875743)
> Do you really think a book with instructions in a room plus a man to carry them out understands Chinese?

Do you really think a blob of goo with static sputtering through it, designed by no one, accidentally mutated from pond slime, understands Chinese? I actually find your proposition easier to believe, but here we are.

Re:The singularity is close? by nl on Thursday March 31, 2022 @10:23PM (#30874548)
I think something like OpenAI CLIP + Gpt3 "understands" English at a level comparable to a 7yo.

It can respond to questions and explain its answers. Sometimes it's wrong, but so is a 7yo and you can usually understand why.

Is it intelligent? Maybe it is.

Re:The singularity is close? by AgentME on Thursday March 31, 2022 @09:42PM (#30874306)
This seems like saying since a person's individual neurons can't understand Chinese, then a person can't actually understand Chinese either.
Re:The singularity is close? by windows2020 on Friday April 01, 2022 @01:00AM (#30875326)
We know how the room works--not the brain.

...Can we break it down and replicate it?

Can my sense of self be quantified?

What about animals, insects, viruses?

Is life unique, or an illusion too?

Or, are you the Chinese speaker, and the universe the room?

Re:The singularity is close? by simonh on Friday April 01, 2022 @07:27AM (#30877102)
You seem to be arguing that because we can't do it yet, therefor it can't be done. Or that since we don't yet know how the brain works, that we can never know.
Re:The singularity is close? by gwd on Friday April 01, 2022 @05:17AM (#30876448)
> Searle's answer is obviously not, from which he deduces that the computer program doesn't understand Chinese either.

Would Searle feel differently if he'd taken a computer architecture course?

There was something strangely magic about making an adder:

1. Learn about boolean logic, Karnaugh maps, etc

2. Define the inputs and outputs of a 4-bit adder, deduce some set of gates which would correspond to those outputs

3. Put those into a circuit similator and put a box around it

4. Suddenly the random AND and OR gates, which look arbitrary and none of which individually know how to do addition, collectively know how to addition.

Then you keep scaling that up: Put a bunch of gates together, none of which have memory, and suddenly you have flip-flops and registers. Add an instruction decoder and suddenly it starts zooming along doing things, executing simple programs that you feed it from simulated "memory". But you know that inside is just a spider's nest of logic gates.

I myself am religious and believe in a spiritual world distinct from the material world; but the Chinese Room thought experiment was never that compelling to me: I've seen spider webs of logic gates come alive as processors when assembled properly; I don't see an inherent reason why an algorithm of paper plus a very patient human couldn't come together to create something which "understood".