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Re:Hard to work with by PragmaticPulp on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @09:20PM (#30862813)
This is a fantastic example because your manager did essentially the opposite of what this author would have wanted. The author wants managers to have no tolerance for people who perform poorly, moving to do something to get the poor performers off the teams of the high performers.

Yet that's short-sighted. Teams and expertise are built over time. It may not be ideal for people like the author of this article who believe themselves to be high performers who shouldn't have to ever put up with low performers. However, the real high performers are the ones who can accept that no team is perfect and nobody starts out as a superstar. They make the effort to work with people, mentor, and lead by example.

Re:Hard to work with by theptip on Thursday March 31, 2022 @01:47AM (#30864200)
I don’t think OP is advocating for having no tolerance for low performance. He’s just saying that it’s the manager's job to do something about it when it occurs and can’t be resolved otherwise, else it negatively impacts the rest of the team. “Do something” could be training, coaching, shifting scope of responsibilities, whatever. Doesn’t necessarily mean firing people.

Mentoring and leading by example are great things to do, but they do nothing to solve the actual scenarios that Will gave as examples in the OP. There are some situations that you can’t resolve by being a good colleague, and the manager needs to step in.

Re:Hard to work with by sangnoir on Thursday March 31, 2022 @10:38AM (#30867691)
> He’s just saying that it’s the manager's job to do something about it when it occurs and can’t be resolved otherwise, else it negatively impacts the rest of the team.

Managing peers is not their job - the author tried to spin the lack of action by manager as poor management, but what if the manager has more context and good reasons for maintaining the status quo? IMO, this is management equivalent of tech debt, and hr is demanding that it gets addressed immediately without caring about other consequences outside their own narrow window into the org.

Re:Hard to work with by icelancer on Thursday March 31, 2022 @12:14AM (#30863759)
> This is a fantastic example because your manager did essentially the opposite of what this author would have wanted. The author wants managers to have no tolerance for people who perform poorly, moving to do something to get the poor performers off the teams of the high performers.

This is not how I read it. You have to do your best as a manager to train your employees and live up to what Andy Grove said in High Output Management. You must set a high standard and it is your job to get your reports to that standard the best you possibly can.

But when your reports cannot or will not get to that standard despite a huge investment in training and clear direction, you have to move on.

Re:Hard to work with by nerdponx on Thursday March 31, 2022 @02:44AM (#30864483)
> As you look at enough of these scenarios, you can back out a common pattern. The main character is trying to do their job effectively, but can’t due to the low performance of a peer. They escalate to the appropriate manager to address the issue, but that manager transforms the performance issue into a relationship issue: it’s not that the peer isn’t performing, it’s just that the two of you don’t like each other. Instead of being the manager’s responsibility to resolve the performance issue, it’s now the main character’s responsibility. By attempting to drive accountability in their peer, the main character has blocked their own progress (“they’re just hard to work with”) without accomplishing anything.

Emphasis mine.

Re:Hard to work with by civilized on Thursday March 31, 2022 @11:28AM (#30868291)
The problem he's focused on is not the tolerance for the peer performing badly. It's the blowback for the main character who points it out.
Re:Hard to work with by nerdponx on Thursday March 31, 2022 @11:47AM (#30868507)
Precisely, that's the point I was trying to demonstrate.
Re:Hard to work with by nunez on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @09:32PM (#30862905)
It is much easier to think "we should fire that person" instead of "how can we improve this person."
Re:Hard to work with by EnKopVand on Thursday March 31, 2022 @02:42AM (#30864469)
In what world is it easier to fire someone than to fix them? Because in any sort or management I’ve been involved with here in Denmark it’s always the exact opposite.

When you fire someone. You tax HR and yourself with the process both of letting someone go and finding their replacement. You have to pay their salary 3-6 months going forward as well as all the paid vacation they may have saved up. Most importantly you tax your team with the added resource drain of covering the tasks as well as integrating the replacement. You also risk damaging morale, and worse, you risk increasing employee anxiety as even the best employee can have inferiority issues.

That being said, the basic mantra in management should always be that you can get rid of anyone, it’s just a matter of cost. So if you need to fire someone, then you need to fire someone.

Personally I prefer building people to the point where they will leave you themselves, but, that’s a style or management that isn’t present in a lot of companies because it takes a corporate culture that is very hard to maintain in large organisations and require quite a lot of management talent in small organisations. It’s also something that is incredibly hard to do as a single manager if the culture is against you.

Re:Hard to work with by mingusrude on Thursday March 31, 2022 @04:23AM (#30865012)
Swede here, it is a different world in the US. Firing is easy, two weeks at the most to get someone out. The other way holds true though, it is equally difficult to find replacements but usually once you do, they can join sooner than in Scandinavia since employees too can leave within a days or at most 1-2 weeks.
Re:Hard to work with by Beltiras on Thursday March 31, 2022 @06:41AM (#30865710)
In Iceland there's a mutual 3 month termination notice for most positions. I just switched jobs and had to do a whole lot to be let go 6 weeks after I gave notice. My employer absolutely had the right to retain my services for the full 3 months thou.
Re:Hard to work with by rfrey on Thursday March 31, 2022 @09:19AM (#30866827)
I'm curious how this works in practice. A conscientious employee will honor the 3 month term, of course. But if there is animosity, or a lack of trust, or a feeling of betrayal etc. etc. how does the company keep the employee working for those 3 months? As opposed to having a desk vacation?
Re:Hard to work with by laci37 on Thursday March 31, 2022 @09:48AM (#30867128)
We have 2 month notices here. Most people do knowledge transfers in their notice period. It's harder to slack off if your task is pair coding or explaining stuff to your peers. We waived this period for a few people, because they were negatively impacting morale, but they still got their salary. It's just the cost of firing someone.
Re:Hard to work with by Beltiras on Thursday March 31, 2022 @10:14AM (#30867436)
Nobody wants to leave on bad terms if it isn't strictly necessary. In the best case a hire will be made and some overlapping time will occur so a hand-off can be executed.
Re:Hard to work with by higeorge13 on Thursday March 31, 2022 @02:04PM (#30870369)
Germany also has 3 months notice starting from the next month you give it or something similar? I work remotely in a german company and i was shocked to hear this. We have new hires from Germany who we were expecting them since xmas-January..
Re:Hard to work with by sokoloff on Thursday March 31, 2022 @05:10AM (#30865241)
> You have to pay…all the paid vacation they may have saved up.

Well, that’s time (or deferred pay) they’ve contractually and morally earned, so that part’s entirely fair.

Re:Hard to work with by thebean11 on Thursday March 31, 2022 @10:37AM (#30867681)
Yes, and the employer is going to be paying it either way, either as a lump sum or as wages while the employee is on vacation.
Re:Hard to work with by bryanrasmussen on Thursday March 31, 2022 @02:45AM (#30864485)
>In what world is it easier to fire someone than to fix them?

In the U.S - where you generally don't have to pay as long a severance pay if at all.

on edit: as in most things 'in the U.S' this varies on state by state basis.

Re:Hard to work with by conanbatt on Thursday March 31, 2022 @10:15AM (#30867444)
Not really true, it is actually a constant lesson that you need to fire more because the bias is always to do nothing.
Re:Hard to work with by eertami on Thursday March 31, 2022 @04:25AM (#30865020)
>Personally I prefer building people to the point where they will leave you themselves

Does Denmark not have constructive dismissal laws? Making changes that force someone out is an easily winnable unfair dismissal at an employment tribunal, at least for the UK. And that costs more than just firing them for bad performance.

Re:Hard to work with by YawningAngel on Thursday March 31, 2022 @04:44AM (#30865116)
Denmark absolutely has such laws, but I think OP meant that they seek to develop their employees to the point that they outstrip their original role, not to constructively dismiss them
Re:Hard to work with by ChuckNorris89 on Thursday March 31, 2022 @03:39AM (#30864792)
>In what world is it easier to fire someone than to fix them?

You clearly haven't met Austrian management. It's nearly at will employment (in theory it's not, but in some domains many companies know and do skirt around the law to get rid of employees quickly without getting sued).

Once the management decides they don't like you anymore, you're given your standard one to three months notice, then you're gone. I asked a lawyer, and they said the employer can fire your without any reason as long as they give you your contractual notice period.

My favorite example is them using Jira velocity charts to fire the one with the slowest curve. You get a warning (p.i.p.) telling you your velocity needs to catch up, then after two sprints you get your notice handed to you.

OTOH, there are other EU countries where firing people is really difficult. Here it's just a rubber stamp thanks to decades of pro-business politicians elected in power who eroded workers' rghts.

Re:Hard to work with by andrewingram on Thursday March 31, 2022 @06:52AM (#30865780)
I’ve worked under very trigger-happy leaders in startups here in the UK. I think in the first two years of employment it’s fairly easy. Given typical engineering tenures, this basically describes everyone.
Re:Hard to work with by goodpoint on Thursday March 31, 2022 @09:00AM (#30866676)
> In what world is it easier to fire someone than to fix them?

In many English-speaking countries is not difficult to convince an employee to quit.

Re:Hard to work with by city41 on Thursday March 31, 2022 @07:39AM (#30866062)
> You also risk damaging morale,

If someone really should be fired but isn't, that also damages morale.

Re:Hard to work with by andrewflnr on Thursday March 31, 2022 @12:16AM (#30863767)
I'm not sure this is true in practice. Thinking about firing people is already kind of hard, so a lot of people think about and do other stuff they hope will improve the person. What's actually hard is doing something effective to improve the person's performance.
Re:Hard to work with by convolvatron on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @10:02PM (#30863081)
you have to do both. seriously do your best to help them improve. but if they are causing problems for other people, you have to give up after some time and get them out of the way
Re:Hard to work with by PragmaticPulp on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @10:49PM (#30863342)
> but if they are causing problems for other people,

This is the crux of the issue: The definition of "causing problems for other people" isn't as well defined as it may seem.

Someone who is constantly driving the team further apart than together, struggling to work with other members of the team, and being openly dismissive of others would fit the definition of "causing problems for other people".

From another perspective, it would also fit the definition of the "hard to work with" person in this article. That's the point: Even when someone is falling behind, as an employee you must find a way to at least try to work with them and lead by example.

Re:Hard to work with by smackeyacky on Thursday March 31, 2022 @12:18AM (#30863778)
I've seen a lot of examples of this, having been parachuted into a few failing teams. The most effective means I found of getting "hard to work with" people who genuinely wanted to be better, is to give them some freedom.

One pattern that I saw quite a bit was one team member being a bit more technical (rather than business focused), so they tended to cop a lot of the internal questions that caused them to context switch a lot. It increases their frustration levels and drops their performance. One effective way to solve that is to acknowledge what is happening, and put in some boundaries so the other team members know that (for example) Tuesdays-Thursdays you need to really be stuck before you bug XXX about your problem. It makes XXX feel better about the situation because not only has it been acknowledged they are a key team member, it also makes sure they get some quiet time to really get stuff done at their own pace without having to switch jobs all the time.

The other team members, knowing there are a few boundaries now, tend to become more self sufficient so you end up with a better performing team overall, and one that isn't so dependent on a single person.

Obviously there are other patterns that end up creating "hard to work with" people, but the example came up so often I think it's worth writing about.

Re:Hard to work with by msrenee on Thursday March 31, 2022 @07:56AM (#30866196)
That's a good point. You can have a person who is amazing at their task, but doesn't communicate and doesn't get documents and info to others that need it. Even if you're the best in the world at writing code, that's not worth a damn if you're withholding the materials and knowledge about a project that other people need to do their work.

If you're too busy thinking what an amazing worker you are and everyone else is dragging you down, there's a good chance you feel vindicated in behaving in a way that makes your coworkers' jobs harder. Why should you help them out? They're not even trying to do things right and they're making you look bad.

Re:Hard to work with by rodgerd on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @10:51PM (#30863355)
Change the people, or change the people.
Re:Hard to work with by vanillax on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @10:06PM (#30863106)
this.
Re:Hard to work with by mprovost on Thursday March 31, 2022 @06:27AM (#30865638)
Unless you're a sociopath, as a manager it's never easy to think of firing a person (where the alternative is improving them - sometimes people do things that make it easy). It's usually sleepless nights, stress, alcohol, sometimes counselling or therapy.
Re:Hard to work with by 29athrowaway on Thursday March 31, 2022 @12:47AM (#30863908)
The problem with software engineering management nowadays is the ubiquituous 18th century sweatshop mentality. In those sweatshops, the worker that completed more pairs of shoes is the highest performing one. But when you try to apply that mentality to more abstract endeavours like software engineering, it doesn't work.

Let's imagine there is a problem that requires to need to implement 100 classes to deal with 100 different types.

A 18th century person would say: I have 100 classes, 5 workers, I am going to give 20 classes for each worker to implement.

A person that actually knows what's going on would simply write template <typename T> class FuckYou, done.

In the wrong hands, software is misery.

Re:Hard to work with by 29athrowaway on Thursday March 31, 2022 @11:01AM (#30867959)
And the generation Z version in case you are wondering is

  function FuckYou(T) {
    return class {
      // something with T
    };
  }
Because you can return classes from a function.
Re:Hard to work with by pas on Thursday March 31, 2022 @11:18AM (#30868175)
in C++? or JS or ...? :o
Re:Hard to work with by 29athrowaway on Thursday March 31, 2022 @12:10PM (#30868791)
My self reply was JS
Re:Hard to work with by pgruenbacher on Thursday March 31, 2022 @11:56AM (#30868627)
zig
Re:Hard to work with by vvanders on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @10:03PM (#30863085)
Maybe I read it differently but I think the bar that one can hold and the performance against that bar("high"/"low") can be two separate things. Sometimes they correlate but not always.

My read on the article was more on a mis-alignment of values and what is considered success. High bar / low "performance"(which is a subjective thing and can vary based on external factors) are those who want to learn because they know they aren't at that bar now but they want to be.

"Low bar" / high or low performance means that you have different goals and different measures of "success". If you don't resolve those first then that leads to the friction and the pattern the author outlines.

This can be in a bunch of different areas(security, performance, maintainability) and sometimes if you have two people who hold velocity and architecture separately as their highest bar it can appear that they don't value each other's bar since they are in direct conflict. It's been my experience that if you can ground it in why people hold certain bars and that the goals are actually aligned then the sum of the team that hold a high bar in different areas is greater than the parts.

Re:Hard to work with by jzb on Thursday March 31, 2022 @07:17AM (#30865924)
I didn’t get that from this at all. His complaint seemed to be when the organization wouldn’t address a problem, period.

In his shoes, I’d be thrilled if the response was “you’re right, we’re going to coach this other person to improve, because they’re valuable in a lot of ways, but need improvement there so we can succeed.”

Re:Hard to work with by PaulHoule on Thursday March 31, 2022 @11:09AM (#30868066)
In @koof's story, @koof recognized he was performing poorly.

In the other situations an employee is performing poorly, not recognizing it, and neither is the organization.

Re:Hard to work with by tomaskafka on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @07:30AM (#30917662)
I believe OP is talking about keeping poor performers in high positions for sake of fake harmony.
Re:Hard to work with by kayamon on Thursday March 31, 2022 @03:42AM (#30864806)
> The author wants [...]

Here we have an excellent example of the straw man, nice to see still practiced these days.