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Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by mbesto on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @11:41AM (#30856709)
> With fully driverless operation starting in SF (and with several years in Phoenix)

As I understand it, they will only operate within a "grid". In other words, its use case will be limited to essentially a customized route city bus.

> widely rolled out within ten years seems very plausible.

Define "widely". We are decades away from a driverless car driving in snow.

Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by warcher on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @12:09PM (#30857154)
Joke's on you, we're getting rid of snow!
Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by _carbyau_ on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @09:31PM (#30862893)
I had to laugh or I'd cry. :-)
Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by jefftk on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @11:45AM (#30856770)
> Define "widely". We are decades away from a driverless car driving in snow.

I agree snow is a lot harder (I don't think it's decades, though). But the cases moritonal brought up mostly don't require that.

Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by jslaby on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @12:24PM (#30857370)
Or black ice.. hitting the brakes and seeing how far you slide is the only test to determine safety, from my experience.
Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by Dylan16807 on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @11:59PM (#30863685)
Is that hard for a computer to do?

The mere fact that it won't panic on black ice is already a huge advantage. And it will have very detailed feedback to and from the traction control systems.

Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by aranchelk on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @01:57PM (#30858575)
With copious sensor data and individual wheel control, I bet one could devise a more elegant solution.
Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by moritonal on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @12:06PM (#30857114)
Oddly enough from what I've seen when it snows I'd imagine a computer's ability to simulate a multi-car situation in snow _vastly_ outmatches your normal humans.
Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by tablespoon on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @01:12PM (#30858020)
> Oddly enough from what I've seen when it snows I'd imagine a computer's ability to simulate a multi-car situation in snow _vastly_ outmatches your normal humans.

What's the basis for your imagining? Whenever I read some strong "computer > human" statement like that, I can't help but think it's substantially based on science fiction (which can make technology work fantastically well because it's not real, e.g. like Six Million Dollar Man vs actual prosthetic limbs).

Also, have you heard about the time I was driving on the highway in winter weather, and my adaptive cruise control would stop working every few dozen miles because I had to get out and scrape ice off the sensor?

Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by Dylan16807 on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @11:57PM (#30863676)
I think you might have missed the implication that the humans are doing a terrible job, so a computer doesn't have to be very good to beat them in this situation.
Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by tablespoon on Thursday March 31, 2022 @09:19AM (#30866823)
> I think you might have missed the implication that the humans are doing a terrible job, so a computer doesn't have to be very good to beat them in this situation.

That doesn't really matter, because I was responding to the the sci-fi sentiment that "of course the computer must be better because computer." It doesn't matter if the humans are doing a poor job if the computer is still worse.

Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by Dylan16807 on Thursday March 31, 2022 @02:16PM (#30870483)
I don't think that was the sentiment at all.

Especially because the claim is only about snowy situations. Even in a reply about snow, someone that thinks computers are automatically better would normally just say that directly.

Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by mantas on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @12:25PM (#30857385)
What if sensors are covered in snow?

Parktronics routinely get covered by snow/slush/ice when driving.

Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by 300bps on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @12:40PM (#30857593)
My car’s visual sensors (i.e. my eyes) are often blocked by snow and ice.

When that happens I hit a button to turn on the defroster that then gets rid of the snow and ice.

Could they use a similar system?

Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by hedora on Thursday March 31, 2022 @12:46AM (#30863906)
If only there were some sort of "wind shield" to protect the sensor clusters.

Can I patent that?

Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by mbesto on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @05:32PM (#30861047)
What do they do while it defrosts? Sit there?
Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by tuatoru on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @10:19PM (#30863179)
And if the defroster fails, like many I've seen? Phone for help?
Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by Dylan16807 on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @11:56PM (#30863669)
Sure! Humans get snowed in sometimes too.
Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by minwcnt5 on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @12:19PM (#30857302)
Nah, your understanding is incorrect. I've used it in Phoenix and it goes places a bus wouldn't like residential culdesacs and parking lots (whithin the geofence).
Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by airstrike on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @01:51PM (#30858507)
> like residential culdesacs and parking lots

Literally the two easiest places it could go into

Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by treesprite82 on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @03:33PM (#30859807)
Lower stakes because of the speed, but a lot of special cases. Higher chance of pedestrians and parked cars in the road for both. Parking lots will have a lot of cars moving in atypical ways, and markings aren't as standardized as on roads.
Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by airstrike on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @04:04PM (#30860123)
Sure, but at 5mph everything is easier
Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by dane-pgp on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @04:18PM (#30860264)
Sure a computer can beat an expert human at chess, but get back to me when it can beat an expert go player.
Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by airstrike on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @05:03PM (#30860742)
Self-driving is not even on the same scale of complexity as a board game. The latter is an inherently digital problem, easy to parse and not played in “real time”
Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by dane-pgp on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @06:57PM (#30861887)
> The latter is an inherently digital problem, easy to parse and not played in “real time”

So people should have been able to correctly predict how easy it would be for a computer to master go, right?

Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by airstrike on Thursday March 31, 2022 @02:36PM (#30870736)
People's inability to accurately assess how easy an inherently easy problem is has no bearing on people's inability to accurately assess how hard an inherently hard problem is.

Said differently, I start from the assumption that some problems are obviously easy, some problems are obviously hard, and every other problem is somewhere in the middle. Self-driving is in the "obviously hard" bucket. Feel free to argue for where you think Go sits in the spectrum, but I would argue no board game is in the "obviously hard" bucket

Hard and easy defined as the ability to solve in a reasonable amount of time with the algorithms and computational models we have today or in the near future -- regardless of ~marginally increasing processing power.

Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by dane-pgp on Thursday March 31, 2022 @11:22PM (#30874860)
> People's inability to accurately assess how easy an inherently easy problem is has no bearing on people's inability to accurately assess how hard an inherently hard problem is.

Really? It seems to me that if people over-estimated the difficulty of an "easy" problem like mastering go, then they're even more likely to over-estimate the difficulty of a hard problem like self-driving. In fact, the over-estimation could scale up faster than linearly, if estimating two problems of size X is easier than estimating one problem of size 2X.

> with the algorithms and computational models we have today or in the near future

That's the thing. When predictions were being made about the difficulty of mastering go, people didn't have the algorithms and computational models that we have today. Similarly, predictions made today about the progress of self-driving cars may be lacking critical information about the algorithms and computational models that will be available in the near future.

Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by tuatoru on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @10:20PM (#30863187)
Get back to me when it can go into my kitchen for the first time and make me a cup of coffee.
Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by mbesto on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @05:31PM (#30861038)
> customized route

Guess you missed this distinction.

Re:Waymo begins driverless rides in San Francisco by Dylan16807 on Thursday March 31, 2022 @12:03AM (#30863704)
Doing things a bus would not do sounds like it's well beyond "customized route".

If "customized route" counts any drive, then that's not really a limitation any more.