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Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by abledon on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @12:38AM (#30851529)
I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station beside the humpty dumpty peanuts... but it does have its place.

The mental health epidemic for returning veterans for example[1]:

"More than 45,000 veterans and active-duty service members have killed themselves in the past six years. That is more than 20 deaths a day — in other words, __more suicides each year than the total American military deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq__." "“One of the biggest battles is the military culture,” Ms. Ruocco said. “Seeking mental health treatment goes against everything they are taught in boot camp,” where service members are told “to push through pain, to think of everybody else before self, to solve problems with lethal force if necessary.”"

[1] https://archive.is/oxZZ3#selection-533.0-533.303

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by vmception on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @12:51AM (#30851600)
Right, it should be sold next to the other poisonous stuff at the gas station that has disclaimers for the consumer to keep it away from children.

The public itself needs to readjust its role with the government, where availability doesn't mean endorsement.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by jychang on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @03:54AM (#30852482)
YOU might be an adult, but honestly in the past few years, it seems pretty clear that plenty of people who are age 18 or 21 or even age 40 can't seem to act like adults. And I say that as someone who is a proponent of MDMA legalization.

It is well known that humans can't make rational choices. If refrigerators with CFCs were still legal to purchase alongside non-CFC refrigerators, I'd be willing to bet the ozone layer would probably not exist right now. If leaded gasoline wasn't basically banned, I bet plenty of people will still drive around using leaded gasoline.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by watwut on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @04:55AM (#30852837)
> YOU might be an adult, but honestly in the past few years, it seems pretty clear that plenty of people who are age 18 or 21 or even age 40 can't seem to act like adults.

That is because "acting like adult" is used as term of approval. It means "a theoretically ideal" behavior. It does not mean "average adult have that psychology" nor "average adult have that value".

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by jychang on Thursday April 07, 2022 @06:40AM (#30942811)
That's like calling "getting a C- in a class so that you pass the class" or "not pissing your own pants" some sort of "theoretically ideal" behavior.

Yes, it's "ideal" in the sense that not everyone accomplishes that behavior (some people will fail a class or have bladder issues, obviously). But that doesn't mean "half the population failing Algebra I" or "half the population regularly pees their own pants" is an acceptable outcome in society.

Just because you can define "acting like an adult" as ideal rather than true in all real cases doesn't mean it shouldn't be an expectation.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by vmception on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @11:09AM (#30856233)
This doesn’t seem to change my point.

Lysol can kill you and all your children.

Mouthwash can.

And for something with more similarities: advil.

All sold in gas stations.

So, do the studies just so that we can have fine print on the side of the bottle just like everything else, and sell it alongside everything else.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by jychang on Thursday April 07, 2022 @06:34AM (#30942781)
Lysol doesn't directly interact with the brain's reward mechanisms, undermining rational thought processes (unless there's people out there huffing Lysol that I'm not aware of).

A car can kill you and all your children. Are you a proponent of allowing anyone to drive a car without restrictions (driver's licenses)? Slap a warning label on the steering wheel of a car "do not drive while drunk" and call it a day?

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by Dma54rhs on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @04:50AM (#30852800)
True, covid only proved the public health question can't be solved from the individualistic point of view. Many drugs have a big cost on society, not just individual who decides to take them.
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by more_corn on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @01:12PM (#30858022)
By that logic we should nerf everything in the world.

But you miss the point. Banning psychedelics prevents their use in psychotherapy.

Rolling back that ban do we can explore the possibilities is certainly sound.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by jychang on Thursday April 07, 2022 @06:30AM (#30942752)
That's clearly a bad argument. That's equivalent to saying that driving cars or flying planes should be available to everyone, without a driver's licence or pilot's license.

Don't strawman what I said. I didn't say psychedelics should be banned. I said that they shouldn't be sold in gas stations (aka easily available to the public).

I fail to see how that prevents prescriptions from being a viable option, or a "mdma license" similar to a driver's license that is issued only after a person proves that they can safely use it.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by nerdponx on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @01:59AM (#30851912)
This doesn't work with alcohol or nicotine. Why should it work with MDMA?
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by taurath on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @03:18AM (#30852307)
One might rather live in a world where MDMA (a far less addicting substance with more acute rather than chronic side effects) is endemic rather than those two.
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by emteycz on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @06:24AM (#30853362)
Yeah, MDMA will simply stop working for you for a while after you do it a few times in a row. Alcohol, not really.
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by SpodGaju on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @06:44AM (#30853466)
You literally described what addiction is in reference to MDMA. And this is going to be the problem with the drug for treating mood disorders. Just like Prozac, it will stop working And you will need a larger dose for the same action.

Just because you don’t actively go out and seek for a drug does not mean you are not addicted (conditioned)to it.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by LocalH on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @08:32AM (#30854251)
The thing about MDMA is that it causes your brain to dump your serotonin reserves into your brain all at once. Doing that too often, without letting your serotonin rebuild, can cause serotonin syndrome.

I think psychedelics are safer in that regard. Nobody in the history of humanity has ever physically done "too much acid". Even some people who ingested tens of thousands of micrograms (thinking they were snorting coke) came out of it perfectly fine with appropriate care (since the amount was so high compared to the usual dosages, they did need medical care).

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by Turing_Machine on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @09:03AM (#30854605)
> Doing that too often, without letting your serotonin rebuild, can cause serotonin syndrome.

Serotonin syndrome is when you have too much serotonin, not too little.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by LocalH on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @04:11PM (#30860196)
I apologize for my miswording. Nonetheless, overuse of MDMA can indeed result in serotonin syndrome.
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by fluoridation on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @09:33AM (#30854991)
I think classical psychedelics are among the safest drugs, but honestly, how is that not "too much acid"? If they needed medical care, that implies that if they hadn't received that care they would not have been perfectly fine. Yes, it was an accident caused by irresponsible use, but let's not mince words. The point where a dose is "too much" should be (at the most) the point where you need medical attention, not the point where you suffer some permanent damage or death.
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by jychang on Thursday April 07, 2022 @06:44AM (#30942835)
"Medical care" for psychedelics really just means "strap them down so they don't hurt themselves thinking they turned into an attack helicopter so they jump off a cliff, and feed them water so they're not dehydrated" and just waiting until it wears off.
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by emteycz on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @09:42AM (#30855098)
You might need medical attention because you'd otherwise hurt yourself, not only because your body is hurt. Most likely, this guy simply picked up the other day and went home.
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by WillDaSilva on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @08:14AM (#30854062)
Addiction and tolerance are related, but distinct.
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by SpodGaju on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @08:49AM (#30854419)
The outcome is the same no matter the difference.

But can I tell you my own brother said he "could not live without Prozac." What does that sound like to you?

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by amanaplanacanal on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @09:24AM (#30854875)
Like he’s taking a life saving medicine? How many people can’t live without insulin?
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by SpodGaju on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @10:34AM (#30855751)
If you have never taken these medication you have never known what it is like to try to stop them. Heroin could be considered a life saving medicine in the same vein.

Prozac artificially increases serotonin as as a result your serotonin receptor density changes. So trying to stop the drug, not only do you end up with all these horrible side effect, but your depression will be much worse until your receptor density normalizes again.

There is a biological marker for the need of insulin. There is no such thing when it comes to prozac.

Keep trying people.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by emteycz on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @11:29AM (#30856510)
There is a biological marker for the need of many drugs too - it develops over time with use (and then stays for a long time).

Anyways, I agree with you w.r.t. many psychiatric drugs. Don't try to spread that into psychedelics though - completely different, it has enough of its own problems and it's not necessary to make up some non-existent on top of that.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by SpodGaju on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @12:02PM (#30857062)
> There is a biological marker for the need of many drugs too

Not for psychiatric drugs, which is my only point. I am not against pharmaceuticals.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by chaosite on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @10:03AM (#30855380)
My own brother once said to me he "could not live without oxygen." What does that sound like to you?
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by emteycz on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @08:32AM (#30854243)
Larger dose won't work. No dose will work. There is no more action until you wait long enough (usually weeks).
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by virtualritz on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @05:31AM (#30853058)
> I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station beside the humpty dumpty peanuts... but it does have its place.

But alcohol (or tobacco) should?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_asses...

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by Jxl180 on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @11:55AM (#30856928)
I can’t speak for other states but my state does not allow gas stations to serve alcohol. Maybe beer at most, but that is tightly controlled and regulated via licenses, inspections, and tons regulations and liability on the licensee.
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by moritonal on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @07:07AM (#30853592)
I believe this is an almost text-book case of the Straw man argument[1].

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by bin_bash on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @07:59AM (#30853956)
I think it's Whataboutism, not Straw man
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by klysm on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @07:37AM (#30853790)
Well, there go the goal posts
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by W4ldi on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @08:08AM (#30854008)
If you think Tobacco and Alcohol are as dangerous as MDMA you have no idea about drugs. It can escalate far far far more easily and I hate those comparison. I'm speaking from experience.
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by LocalH on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @08:25AM (#30854163)
Alcohol is far more dangerous than MDMA, both in long-term usage and immediate effects. Especially when you consider how socially acceptable it is to drink alcohol, and thus the total consumption of alcohol is far higher. Tobacco is largely dangerous in the long term, the immediate damage from tobacco is much smaller.
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by bin_bash on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @09:51AM (#30855222)
I think a world without drunk driving would probably make them more equivalent. It's hard to overstate the cost to society drunk driving costs.
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by SpodGaju on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @06:44AM (#30853467)
No, they shouldn’t.
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by standardUser on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @12:56PM (#30857813)
"I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station"

You have two options- the drug can be sold legally or we can have an excess number of deaths from overdoses, impurities and black market violence.

For some inexplicable reason, the majority of people continue to chose the option that guarantees the most human suffering.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @01:00PM (#30857866)
> For some inexplicable reason, the majority of people continue to chose the option that guarantees the most human suffering.

The problem is that we are asked to decriminalize drugs (like fentanyl) at the same time that we are asked to dedicated massive public resources for the rehabilitation of those people who then used those decriminalized drugs. I would be happy if it were one way or the other, but right now it sucks.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by standardUser on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @01:09PM (#30857982)
The money we spend to try (and fail) to stop drug production, trafficking, sale and use could instead be used to help cover the obviously colossal, multi-generational shortfall we have on mental health and addiction spending. Not to mention revenue raised from taxes.

Maybe there should be exceptions made for exceptionally deadly and addictive dugs, like fentanyl.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @01:23PM (#30858155)
That money won't be enough. Those people are simply broken, most of them aren't being fixed no matter how many resources we throw at them.

Convincing us that we should let people do what they want with drugs and somehow...that it is also our responsibility to pick up the pieces for these people as a consequence, it sounds like hypocrisy. Deflecting that society was responsible for the drug abuse in the first place (by letting people be poor and closing the mental hospitals) isn't going to convince many people that we should allow drug abuse and pay for the consequences as well.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by pmoriarty on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @03:58PM (#30860072)
"Deflecting that society was responsible for the drug abuse in the first place (by letting people be poor and closing the mental hospitals) isn't going to convince many people that we should allow drug abuse and pay for the consequences as well."

The question is: what's the alternative to allowing drug abuse?

We know the War no Drugs is a dismal failure that hurts most the people who need help the most, and their families, and (as knock-on effects) the rest of society.

The pessimist in me thinks it'll just continue, despite being so detrimental to our society as a whole, but there are signs (like the success of cannabis legalization, and the ongoing Psychedelic Renaissance) that we may be moving towards a more constructive future where people who need help aren't treated like criminals and attacked.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @05:48PM (#30861227)
> We know the War no Drugs is a dismal failure that hurts most the people who need help the most, and their families, and (as knock-on effects) the rest of society.

When I was younger, I used to think the war on drugs was a dismal failure, but now seeing what happens when decriminalization is gone with instead, with junkies on the street camping in parks leaving their needles everywhere and the pervasive burnt peanut butter smell from smoking fentanyl on the buses. It might have just been the best of a bunch of bad solutions.

But I get that not all drugs are fentanyl or heroin, I'm totally ok with marijuana legalization. Also, since it is decriminalized in our city and not other places in our region, we probably attract much more of the problem just because our cops don't harass users or dealers.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by standardUser on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @06:20PM (#30861536)
So you can see how the War on Drugs is not a viable solution, and you can see how the half-assed, semi-decriminalized mess we have in some cities is not a viable solution. But you can't see how proactively spending all of this money helping people instead of marginalizing/imprisoning people might be a viable solution?

Either way, we're gonna keep spending untold billions on this problem. I'd like to stop throwing money at policies that destroy lives, violate civil liberties and have been proven by decades of evidence to be infective.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @06:31PM (#30861634)
> But you can't see how proactively spending all of this money helping people instead of marginalizing/imprisoning people

Oh, we can spend an unlimited amount of helping people and it only lasts until they get out and get their next fix. How do you help people that don't really want help? And all of the "help" they want just goes to enabling the destructive behavior, the money we throw at the problem right now just allow them to do more drugs.

> instead of marginalizing/imprisoning people might be a viable solution?

So? The other approach is just enabling their behavior with compassion: let's make sure they have housing and open shelters so they can don't die while continuing to do their drugs? We are already spending untold billions on that, meanwhile ignoring petty property crimes (because junkies need legos for what?), and we only go OMG when they bash some poor girl's head in with a baseball bat because they are having a crisis.

Why have any sympathy for those people at all? So we are already spending around $60k/year/person on these people, how much higher do you want our one city to go? $200k/year? $1 million/year? How do you help people who don't really want help but will gladly take your money? Supply of those needing help (even if they just want drugs) is also basically unlimited since it is more of a national problem, while big cities are expected to provide compassion on their own.

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by standardUser on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @10:33PM (#30863256)
You seem to have a very narrow and frankly uninformed opinion on addiction. It's unlikely you can be convinced that spending billions to arrest and imprison druggies is worse than spending the exact same billions to provide services and support if your beginning assumption is that addicts are lost causes.
Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by ramesh31 on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @09:24AM (#30854873)
>I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station beside the humpty dumpty peanuts... but it does have its place.

Yeah, almost like it should be... a prescription medication sold at pharmacies?

Re:California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted thera... by kgwxd on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @01:45AM (#30851835)
> think of everybody else before self, to solve problems with lethal force if necessary.

What choice do you have if you become the problem for everybody else?