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Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by iSloth on Monday March 21, 2022 @11:43AM (#30755361)
It does seem a little odd when SpaceX have Starlink, surely these two are each other’s main competition.
Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by headmelted on Monday March 21, 2022 @11:52AM (#30755505)
Not really.

Starlink is their main competition, not SpaceX.

This just seems practical and in everyone’s best interest. SpaceX get another recurring paying customer, OneWeb get their sats up.

This is more common than you’d think when companies are large enough to have products in so many different categories.

As an example: Amazon runs Prime Video, but also hosts the infrastructure for Netflix, which to my knowledge Netflix has always been happy with despite relying on a direct competitor for their service.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by cfcosta on Monday March 21, 2022 @11:49AM (#30755441)
Starlink is a money cow, but having your competitor rely on you for the most expensive part of the job sounds like a great proposition for SpaceX.

For OneWeb, they just don't have other options anymore.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by adfgadfgaery on Monday March 21, 2022 @12:21PM (#30755939)
I think you misspelled "money pit". It is currently burning money and will continue doing so for the foreseeable future. According to SpaceX's internal communications, the current approach is unsustainable. It requires future launch vehicles to make sense financially.

https://www.newsweek.com/elon-musk-responds-leaked-email-war...

I don't think satellite internet is promising even once the constellation is up there, but that's another matter.

P.S. The expression is "cash cow".

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by Robotbeat on Monday March 21, 2022 @01:52PM (#30757401)
Satellite Internet is already a multi-billion dollar industry before you have inexpensive and low latency service provided by launch vehicles (and satellites) a tenth to a hundredth the cost.

But sure, buy into Musk pretending it’s desperate to try to motivate his workforce. The SpaceX Steamroller continues apace.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by adfgadfgaery on Monday March 21, 2022 @03:10PM (#30758389)
>Satellite Internet is already a multi-billion dollar industry before you have inexpensive and low latency service provided by launch vehicles (and satellites) a tenth to a hundredth the cost.

It is currently a money pit. It is a simple fact that right now it requires huge expenses in launches, R&D, and subsidized terminals and makes practically no revenue. SpaceX has itself stated in internal communications that their current satellites and current launch systems are not viable.

I don't believe it ever will make any money—cellular networks do the same job better—but it definitely won't make any money in the next few years.

>But sure, buy into Musk pretending it’s desperate to try to motivate his workforce.

So it is your opinion that he was lying to his employees to coerce them into working overtime over the holidays out of fear of losing their jobs? I fail to see how that's an improvement. Either the situation is legitimately desperate or the work environment is abusive.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by kortilla on Monday March 21, 2022 @03:35PM (#30758686)
> SpaceX has itself stated in internal communications that their current satellites and current launch systems are not viable.

Yes, you’re commenting on the Musk email to motivate starship.

> I don't believe it ever will make any money—cellular networks do the same job better

No they don’t, because they don’t exist with good coverage in most of the geographic US. I live ~30 miles from a major city and my internet options are terrible cell backed plans that have gnarly data caps and poor throughput.

Your viewpoint is understandable but it’s completely out of touch with the reality of what exists today. I’m on the starlink waitlist and $100/mo for uncapped 50mbps in my location has absolutely no competition from the cell networks, terrestrial wireless, nor geo stationary providers.

> So it is your opinion that he was lying to his employees to coerce them into working overtime over the holidays out of fear of losing their jobs? I fail to see how that's an improvement. Either the situation is legitimately desperate or the work environment is abusive.

Yes, it’s likely the latter. Starship didn’t exist when starlink was started. The numbers didn’t change.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by Robotbeat on Monday March 21, 2022 @05:24PM (#30759882)
Musk is kind of bipolar when it comes to these things, he does run the company extremely aggressively in a growth mode leaving little margin for a breather (always charging into something more ambitious), and SpaceX does have a sort of reputation for burnout. Yeah, I DO think Musk was exaggerating the risk to try to get his workers to work harder. (He also pushes himself, which doesn’t totally change the fact that SpaceX workers are often at risk of burnout.)
Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by mst on Monday March 21, 2022 @06:27PM (#30760558)
Being a UK resident I often have to remind myself that the UK and continental Europe's level of cellular coverage is something of an outlier.

The whole of the UK is, after all, slightly smaller than Oregon.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by adfgadfgaery on Monday March 21, 2022 @07:32PM (#30761086)
>Being a UK resident I often have to remind myself that the UK and continental Europe's level of cellular coverage is something of an outlier.

You have it backwards. The U.S. is the outlier. All similarly wealthy countries have better coverage.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by kortilla on Sunday March 27, 2022 @05:55PM (#30824550)
No, Canada does not either. Any countries with large rural areas suffer from the same issue.
Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by Robotbeat on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @10:49AM (#30779008)
> It is currently a money pit. It is a simple fact that right now it requires huge expenses in launches, R&D, and subsidized terminals and makes practically no revenue.

This isn’t a “fact.” “It” is the “satellite internet industry.” Viasat, just one such company, has billions in annual revenue and even manages to turn a profit. Starlink is far better positioned. Uses the industry-leading reusable launch vehicle workhorse which has a factor of 10 lower costs than traditional launch companies, with similar cost advantages for the satellite hardware.

Starship is a a factor of 10 or more better than that. Starlink is also entering the in-flight connectivity and the business/enterprise connectivity markets which are much higher margin.

Starlink already has 250,000 residential and business subscribers (worth around half a billion in annual revenue, including current prices, Starlink Business revenue, terminal sales, and special contracts), and they haven’t even filled out there first constellation yet. In 5-10 years, they will have millions of subscribers and billions in revenue. Potentially, tens of millions of subscribers and tens of billions in revenue, just like many other broadband internet providers.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by hedora on Monday March 21, 2022 @12:29PM (#30756060)
But, but, it will scale globally to millions of users! That's more than I can count, and almost enough to saturate one medium sized metro area!

If local ISP's can eke out a living on that sort of revenue stream, I don't see why a global satellite network and launch infrastructure can't.

/s

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by joering2 on Monday March 21, 2022 @12:02PM (#30755638)
Starlink is a money cow ?
Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by cowmix on Monday March 21, 2022 @12:12PM (#30755783)
Will be (or that's the hope).
Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by yodelshady on Monday March 21, 2022 @11:54AM (#30755535)
Samsung will happily sell Apple parts.

If you have a competitive advantage in launching, why limit your exploitation of that? Worst case, you find out that your satellite engineers were coasting off that advantage. Best case, you make money proving they aren't.

Plus you're now antitrust-proof, if that's ever a thing again.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by manquer on Monday March 21, 2022 @11:51AM (#30755489)
Not that odd, oneweb sells b2b only , spaceX does mostly b2c and some b2b.

Also spaceX launched iridium next gen satellites as well.

OneWeb (and iridium) will just operate in their own markets .

Iridium for example could work in different devices than starlink as they are not LEO and do not need the complex phased array setup starlink needs

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by nradov on Monday March 21, 2022 @12:26PM (#30756006)
Iridium constellation is in LEO. The ground terminals are able to use simpler antennas mainly because the data rate is much lower.
Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by manquer on Monday March 21, 2022 @06:18PM (#30760443)
Yes, that was incorrect, they are at 780KM orbit, I was thinking Inmarsat who use GEO.

Phased Array does help in improving signal strength(and bandwidth) by focusing on the orbital plane only, however I thought since Iridium uses L-Band(1-2GHz) and SpaceX uses Ku-Band(12-14Ghz), there is additional dish size required anyway and also rain fade issues meant higher strength is required in Ku to operate well.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by BitwiseFool on Monday March 21, 2022 @11:48AM (#30755439)
I wonder if OneWeb has no other choice. I'm sure executives at SpaceX realize that Starlink would be the superior product and they don't stand to lose that many potential customers to OneWeb. I bet they figure they can make more money from the launch costs than potential impact of competition from OneWeb.

I also wonder if this will end up helping OneWeb. I can't imagine using Soyuz 2.1 rockets is cheaper than paying for reusable Falcon 9's.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by manquer on Monday March 21, 2022 @11:54AM (#30755530)
The only other affordable choice could have been ISRO with PSLV , there was some merits to this as oneweb is owned partly by Bharti an Indian telecom major.

However that was always a long shot, Russia collaborates deeply on the Indian space and missile programs. The cryogenic 4th stage is still a Russian engine on GSLV, ISRO won’t likely risk that partnership as America has always refused any tech because of dual concerns, and ISRO also is not very expandable on launch capacity so it would not be easy even if they wanted to.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by panick21_ on Monday March 21, 2022 @05:36PM (#30760031)
Looking at the launch rates of Indian rockets, its pretty easy to realize that they have no way to simply launch more. They build rockets for specific project and have very low launch rates.

They can't simply build 6 extra rockets in a few years.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by manquer on Monday March 21, 2022 @05:54PM (#30760206)
I agree they cannot expand that much that fast, which was my second point.

They wouldn't be very keen either way, as ISRO's primary objective is their research missions while there is some drive to have commercial operations it is not that important to them.

However it was also possible that Bharti (and U.K. government ) could have pulled enough strings to get ISRO to agree, so won't have been that surprised if they had partnered.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by thinkcontext on Monday March 21, 2022 @02:39PM (#30757988)
They might have been able to get a launch or 2 out of ISRO but they don't have the capacity to build rockets that fast.
Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by gameswithgo on Monday March 21, 2022 @11:50AM (#30755478)
If OneWeb wins, SpaceX makes a ton of money launching for them, and doesn't have to bother running an internet company.
Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by wongarsu on Monday March 21, 2022 @12:06PM (#30755694)
And if OneWeb fails, SpaceX still made good money launching them. And if OneWeb is kind of successful and a duopoly between StarLink and OneWeb develops, SpaceX makes money from both companies.

Selling shovels is a great strategy, even if you own a gold mine.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by bee_rider on Monday March 21, 2022 @12:00PM (#30755604)
I wonder to what degree satellite internet is winner-takes-all.

They are competing for customers but, at least last I checked, they weren't putting a ton of bandwidth into orbit (compared to existing land based stuff). Maybe they'll both end up just selling as much as they can produce.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by wongarsu on Monday March 21, 2022 @12:13PM (#30755807)
It's probably less winner-takes-all than ground based internet. At scale, putting infrastructure into space is a much lower barrier to entry than putting a fiber line into every household.

The limiting factor will be spectrum allocations. You only have so much bandwidth per area, giving an advantage to those that either have more directional antennas or more spectrum available.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by hedora on Monday March 21, 2022 @12:33PM (#30756128)
Fiber to the home doesn't have any technical barriers, but localized corruption creates massive barriers to entry. (It's much easier to do fiber to the home in rural areas than in US metros)

Satellite internet has the opposite problem. If it ends up winning it will be a testament to dysfunctional governments around the world.

Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by ldargin on Monday March 21, 2022 @11:49AM (#30755455)
It's not odd. They'll get paid for it. The money is still green.
Re:OneWeb will resume satellite launches with SpaceX as the ... by pkaye on Monday March 21, 2022 @01:02PM (#30756622)
Musk's long term goal is taking humans to Mars and everything else is a stepping stone to getting there.