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Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by WalterBright on Thursday March 17, 2022 @01:40AM (#30708035)
First it was comic books causing juvenile delinquency. Then it was rock music causing youthful depraved behavior. Then it was video games inducing violent behavior in teens. Now it's social media...

Though I have to admit, when Lex Luther said he could turn a sand pile into an atomic pile, I decided to become a super-villain.

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by noisy_boy on Thursday March 17, 2022 @04:19AM (#30708782)
The difference between a comic book, offline video games and the current social media/MMPROGs is two fold:

1. There is an erosion of physical limitations on how much time you can spend on an activity on an "item". A comic book has fixed no. of pages, once you have finished, you need to get another physical comic book. It doesn't automagically keep adding pages as you keep turning.

2. Deliberate algorithm driven strategies to increase "engagement": the content of the comic book is fixed - you either like it or you don't. It doesn't change the content on the fly based on which turn of events you prefer. Offline video games had more "engagement" but it still was limited by the inbuilt branching of possibilities (which still could be a lot depending on the cleverness of the algorithm/engine - that is why people spent hundreds and thousands of hours on them even without them being MMPROGs). With the current set, the entire thing is driven to reel you in right from the get-go and keep you hooked as long as possible. That surely can't be a good thing for your health.

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by WalterBright on Thursday March 17, 2022 @03:57PM (#30715253)
If I had had my way as a kid, I'd have watched TV all day every day. My dad would say "kids belong outside" and I'd be banished from the house until dinner time.

Wasn't allowed to stay inside and read comic books, either.

At the time I was sure I was being abused, but in retrospect he had the right idea.

TV has always been optimized for engagement and programs are carefully scheduled to keep you watching.

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by puglr on Thursday March 17, 2022 @04:53PM (#30715778)
Isn't that GP's point? Parents in 2022 have a dramatically reduced ability to prevent their children from staring at a screen all day everyday. Even in school, they are glued to their screens. Even if you don't provide them a phone, they have cheap and easy ways to obtain their own.

Edit to add: The dad forcing his kid outside no longer stops them from staring at the screen all day.

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by WalterBright on Thursday March 17, 2022 @08:56PM (#30717544)
Take away his screen.

Suing a company because one is too lazy to say "no" to the kids is deplorable.

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by DocTomoe on Thursday March 17, 2022 @04:34AM (#30708870)
> A comic book has fixed no. of pages, once you have finished, you need to get another physical comic book.

Comic books can be collected and read all over again. They don't magically disappear once read. Same with books: I've recently started my annual re-read of LOTR, that book has cost me hundreds of hours of my lifetime. Someone should be able to sue the Tolkien estate.

> That surely can't be a good thing for your health.

But isn't that the same line of argument we've seen with earlier "youth degradation scares"? Video games make you violent? Comic books make you unlearn reading? Rock music is satanic and turns your brain to mush? Reading leads to flight from reality?

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by noisy_boy on Thursday March 17, 2022 @05:04AM (#30709059)
> Comic books can be collected and read all over again. They don't magically disappear once read. Same with books: I've recently started my annual re-read of LOTR, that book has cost me hundreds of hours of my lifetime. Someone should be able to sue the Tolkien estate.

When I was young, I always read my comic books again and again, mainly because I had a small collection - to the point I almost memorized them. But what you are re-re-re-consuming is still finite and it is upto your mind to discover new things and add the spice of imagination to keep it interesting.

> But isn't that the same line of argument we've seen with earlier "youth degradation scares"? Video games make you violent? Comic books make you unlearn reading? Rock music is satanic and turns your brain to mush? Reading leads to flight from reality?

A comic book presents a relatively static and limited window with tantalizing possibilities - that leaves a lot of legroom for your mind to wander and imagine things and be fascinated with them instead of immediately moving on to the next item on the infinite scroll. Regarding video games/rock music, I don't subscribe to the notions you mentioned. The main issue isn't what is that you are consuming (to be clear, that does matter) but are you consuming in moderation or is your brain overeating without digesting?

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by newswasboring on Thursday March 17, 2022 @08:29AM (#30710390)
> Video games make you violent? Comic books make you unlearn reading?

These statements were never proven empirically, while social media's addictive design and impact is at this point undeniably documented. That is the difference.

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by DocTomoe on Thursday March 17, 2022 @10:35AM (#30711634)
Actually, I vividly remember reading about empirical studies linking video game violence to antisocial behaviour (studies that were later disproven). Who tells us that the current studies won't be similarly become overruled by majority consensus? We should be careful only believing in the studies who tell us what we want to hear.

On further research, metastudies [1] tend to find out that there are tons of studies linking violent games to violent behaviour: "On the basis of this metaanalysis, we conclude that playing violent video games is associated with greater levels of overt physical aggression over time, after accounting for prior aggression."

[1] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1611617114#t01

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by newswasboring on Thursday March 17, 2022 @11:16AM (#30712048)
Hmm... It seems I was under informed. But if these things are problems, then we should try to fix them right? Doesn't that mean the "think of the children" crowd was actually right? We should be making games less violent, or at least provide accurate information about age appropriateness with nuanced content warnings.
Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by johnnyanmac on Sunday March 20, 2022 @06:14AM (#30741468)
>But if these things are problems, then we should try to fix them right?

Preventative measures never work. Mitigative measures should be how you enforce lessons. But everytime it's all about banning content, because sweeping it under the rug means kids won't try to dig, right?

Don't just say "GTA is bad don't play it". Explain what is bad about it (in very specific details), and why they should instead play something else until they get older. Don't treat it as if watching one act of violence or one sex scene will scar the kid for life. If they are old enough to go behind your back, they are probably old enough to be talked to about these topics. At least enough for them to understand why you disapprove.

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by newswasboring on Monday March 21, 2022 @08:53AM (#30753510)
> Don't just say "GTA is bad don't play it". Explain what is bad about it (in very specific details)

> at least provide accurate information about age appropriateness with nuanced content warnings.

You say tomato, I say tomato?

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by WalterBright on Thursday March 17, 2022 @09:01PM (#30717578)
Maybe we should go back to the Hayes Code where movies removed all immoral content?
Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by WalterBright on Thursday March 17, 2022 @08:59PM (#30717571)
"Addictive" is a word bandied about with abandon.

If these things are so addictive, are there withdrawal symptoms? When I'm off the intertoobs for a few days (travelling) I suffer no withdrawal symptoms and don't miss it.

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by therealdrag0 on Thursday March 17, 2022 @12:27PM (#30712946)
"addictive" meh sure. But what about harmful?

Back in the drama around facebooks' internal studies a few months ago, AFAICT it was all hot air and very sad quality studies, I couldn't believe the hype.

Are there other better studies showing harm that haven't been publicized as much?

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by newswasboring on Thursday March 17, 2022 @01:50PM (#30713953)
You don't think addiction brings harm? Do you have an addiction of your own?
Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by johnnyanmac on Sunday March 20, 2022 @06:16AM (#30741473)
addiction brings harm, but addiction's meaning has been muddied over the years. There are very few kids who would be taken off social media and legitimately suffer withdrawal symptoms due to lack of access.

That language is important when determining how to sue a company.

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by account42 on Thursday March 17, 2022 @10:26AM (#30711541)
> Comic books can be collected and read all over again. They don't magically disappear once read. Same with books: I've recently started my annual re-read of LOTR, that book has cost me hundreds of hours of my lifetime. Someone should be able to sue the Tolkien estate.

There is still a defined end state that encourage a break from consumption. How often do you finish a book and then immeadiately start reading from page 1 again.

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by jw_mc on Thursday March 17, 2022 @09:25AM (#30710902)
Sorry, Walter, I don't recall comic book companies hiring legions of psychologists, behavioral economists, and data scientists in order to optimize engagement metrics by exploiting evolutionary bugs built into our brains. This is fundamentally different technology, but nice try. I don't necessarily think that this law is the solution, but I'm glad not everyone is as laissez faire about it as yourself.
Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by PoignardAzur on Thursday March 17, 2022 @05:49PM (#30716262)
> Walter, I don't recall comic book companies hiring legions of psychologists, behavioral economists, and data scientists in order to optimize engagement metrics by exploiting evolutionary bugs built into our brains

They had to do it the old-fashion way and put explosions and women with cleavage on the cover instead.

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by johnnyanmac on Sunday March 20, 2022 @06:19AM (#30741491)
> I don't recall comic book companies hiring legions of psychologists, behavioral economists, and data scientists in order to optimize engagement metrics by exploiting evolutionary bugs built into our brains.

demographic studies and market analysis wasn't invented in the 80's. Neither was clickbait nor color theory or other general psychology. There very much were psychologists to figure out what stories resonate with an audience, and economists optimizing the price per issue with the right cut-off point to engage you to buy the next one. Data scientists didn't exist the way they do now, but did the same thing; surveying a bunch of kids and figuring out what they liked and making content based on it.

None of this is new. advertisement is an art with centuries of refinement.

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by newswasboring on Thursday March 17, 2022 @11:08AM (#30711967)
Is there a source for this? I have taken this at face value, because its quite clear from app designs that this is happening, but I have never found definitive proof of this happening. Has someone compiled a report on this?
Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by sdoering on Thursday March 17, 2022 @03:05AM (#30708412)
In principle I agree. Still I see structural differences in comic books and the abuse potential of psychological principles behind skinner boxes (esp. randomized rewards).

We are basically training ourselves with systems like these to press the lever again and again.

Even HN with the random element of 'will my submission/comment receive votes' works like a skinner box. And we don't even have notifications here.

Not sure if it is a good idea to train young people into these dopamine "shots". I remember how friends of mine spent all their pocket money on these collectible card games. Looking back these were my first encounter with the loot box principle.

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by oblio on Thursday March 17, 2022 @04:44AM (#30708923)
> First it was comic books causing juvenile delinquency. Then it was rock music causing youthful depraved behavior. Then it was video games inducing violent behavior in teens. Now it's social media...

The difference between those things and social media is that none of them were "always on, always available" corporate behemoths hiring legions of addiction experts and legions of marketing experts crafting powerful social networks and legions of lobbyists to stifle legislation.

Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by tsol on Thursday March 17, 2022 @09:09AM (#30710739)
Those are two categorically different things. Rock music was blamed for encouraging immorality(given the number of rock stars that have admitted getting with underage groupies I think there's still an argument to be made here). Social media is knowingly giving little girls eating disorders. It's not a moral panic
Re:California bill would let parents sue social media compan... by WalterBright on Thursday March 17, 2022 @09:05PM (#30717598)
You might say this is different, and maybe you're right, but the "save the children" rhetoric is exactly the same.