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Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by dmitrygr on Thursday March 17, 2022 @01:30AM (#30707986)
A company that never encourages or rewards fixing things, but does reward making new things is bound to produce many versions of the same thing. How many chat systems does google have? And how many dozens more have they already killed?
Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by Barrin92 on Thursday March 17, 2022 @01:50AM (#30708078)
“No man ever steps in the same river twice. For it's not the same river and he's not the same man.”

There can be a lot of value in rebuilding the same things from the ground up. There'll always be differences and novel things that people earlier hadn't seen. Of course it's costly and disruptive because you kill a lot of stuff, but especially in software building new things is relatively fast.

People will always complain about companies that kill a lot of products or software but at the end of the day they get more chances to build things from the ground up.

Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by doctor_eval on Thursday March 17, 2022 @02:43AM (#30708326)
But it's not fast for the people who follow. That's the problem.

If you create a product then there is an external cost borne by the users who need to use it. And then if you replace that product with some other product, those users need to retrain.

It's really easy to create a new product, but it is a commitment for someone else to adopt it. And just because the cost is externalised, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by rvba on Thursday March 17, 2022 @07:06AM (#30709760)
> There can be a lot of value in rebuilding the same things from the ground up.

Maybe there is value for managers (who got promotions) and programmers (who got promotions and learned something), but for Google there is no value at all - it losts its users.

I remember everyone using gmail chat.. that they "remade" (killed) like two times.

Everyone just moved on.

Also I dont understand why investors arent unhappy with that. Google can still earn hundreds of millions on chat. Those wont be billions, but it is still money. And "hudred million here, hundred million there" start to add up.

Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by joshuamorton on Thursday March 17, 2022 @02:01AM (#30708114)
Protobuf and FIDL have very different design goals though. One is meant for backwards compatible over the wire communication between loosely coupled RPC systems, and one is meant to be a highly efficient IPC.

I expect, for example, that it is vastly more efficient to send a known datastructure over the wire in FIDL, but it is vastly more efficient to parse, modify/extend a repeated subfield, and then reserialize a protobuf.

You can't "fix" a system to achieve two goals that are in conflict, sometimes it is in fact better to have N opinionated systems, than one that is only okay at everything.

Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by surajrmal on Thursday March 17, 2022 @02:21AM (#30708210)
FIDL actually does make backwards compatibility a core concern. Being able to modify an existing type and allowing client and servers to continue to work when out of sync is achieved through a similar mechanism by which protobuf achieves it - a data type in which all members are optional.

That said, there are certainly many design decisions that FIDL does do differently because the constraints of the problems it tries to solve are different as you mention.

Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by nly on Thursday March 17, 2022 @05:06AM (#30709080)
Skimming the docs, it looks like the heavyweight use use of "tables", much like Flatbuffers, seems to be the only mechanism for forward evolution of a protocol.

Looks like "structs" you can only remove boxed fields by setting their references to null, but not add fields.

Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by surajrmal on Thursday March 17, 2022 @12:21PM (#30712854)
Other types such as unions, enums, and bits also have properties that allow for evolution: https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/development/languages/fidl/g...
Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by cmrdporcupine on Thursday March 17, 2022 @09:49AM (#30711125)
This difference in focus doesn't stop various teams at Google from forcing gRPC/Protobuf into use in places where an IPC system like Mojo/FIDL or even a simple wire protocol (JSON over WebSocket say) would be more appropriate. I know of at least 2 HW/embedded type projects at Google where major engineering had to be done for months because an upstream team refused to use anything but gRPC.
Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by surajrmal on Thursday March 17, 2022 @12:26PM (#30712938)
Mojo and FIDL aren't necessarily portable outside of their respective platforms. grpc may have unnecessary overhead when used for IPC, but it's well supported, understand, and portable. I don't claim to understand the full constraints the teams you refer to were under, but I'd like you to consider that they may have done what they thought was best.
Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by cmrdporcupine on Thursday March 17, 2022 @06:31PM (#30716613)
Why would you assume I didn't consider?
Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by moltenguardian on Thursday March 17, 2022 @02:39AM (#30708302)
Are old applications going to run on new kernels? If so, backwards compatibility is a primary goal of an IPC dialog.
Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by DaiPlusPlus on Thursday March 17, 2022 @01:51AM (#30708079)
> How many chat systems does google have?

* Google+ (rip)

* Google Allo

* Google Chat

* Google Groups (separate from Google's Usenet service)

* Google Hangouts

* Google Messenger

* Google Duo

* SMS via Google Project Fi

* Google Voice

> And how many dozens more have they already killed?

Too many: https://killedbygoogle.com/

Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by sniperjzp on Thursday March 17, 2022 @02:07AM (#30708144)
Listing the messaging App here is like comparing apples to oranges, gRPC and FIDL are for different purposes from technical perspective, people must have evaluated leveraging existing tech vs. creating a new one before the investment.
Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by malkia on Friday March 18, 2022 @09:38PM (#30730018)
I've been only for 2-3 years ato google, butit felt like (Ads-team perspective) that protobuf is the building block in google. Some databases can hold as data as protobufs, and then convert these row oriented beasts into multi-million column databases with each protobuf leaf being separate column (!) such that analysts/linguists/statisticians and other scientists can lookup their data quickly (given some latency of minutes to hours).
Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by google234123 on Thursday March 17, 2022 @01:56AM (#30708097)
You listed a number of services that are closed or have been merged together to be fair. I'm also not sure what the point of listing sms from a phone service is.
Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by cco on Thursday March 17, 2022 @02:20AM (#30708205)
You're missing the chat features of Google Maps, Google Pay, and Google Photos...maybe a few others I'm missing?
Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by slightknack on Thursday March 17, 2022 @02:28AM (#30708243)
Don't forget the built-in chat in google docs that nobody uses! (Yes, the one other than the commenting system).
Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by cco on Thursday March 17, 2022 @03:28AM (#30708515)
Oh my goodness, TIL. I know what I'll be doing tomorrow at work...
Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by mastax on Thursday March 17, 2022 @11:06AM (#30711941)
YouTube had a chat feature at one point recently.
Re:Fuchsia IDL Overview by mda on Thursday March 17, 2022 @08:53AM (#30710607)
You are not contributing to the discussion. your comment is irrelevant to the subject.