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Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by mupuff1234 on Friday March 11, 2022 @08:26AM (#30639561)
I'm not a fan of the occupation of the West Bank, but those are not 1:1 scenarios. West Bank was occupied after Jordan initiated the offensive, not Israel, as opposed to Russia who is the aggressor.

A 1:1 scenario would be if Ukraine invaded Russia and then Russia took control over Ukraine territory, which in that case i'd argue the outcry would be minimal.

Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by umanwizard on Friday March 11, 2022 @08:28AM (#30639585)
As I replied to a similar comment that was deleted: this is irrelevant ancient history.

What matters is that Israel is maintaining their illegal occupation even today, and even expanding it (building new settlements, etc.)

Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by pirate787 on Friday March 11, 2022 @08:35AM (#30639657)
The fact that the Arab world united and attempted to destroy Israel through invasion multiple times is not ancient history and certainly not irrelevant.
Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by biorach on Friday March 11, 2022 @08:45AM (#30639799)
The occupation of the West Bank does nothing to deter this.

The annexation of the Golan Heights is somewhat justifiable on strategic grounds. The occupation of the West Bank is a land grab, pure and simple.

Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by nindalf on Friday March 11, 2022 @09:20AM (#30640199)
I think continuing to occupy West Bank and Gaza is unconscionable.

But you’re mischaracterising the strategic importance of the West Bank. If it was a sovereign nation, the logical thing for the West Bank government to do would be to place artillery on the high ground near Israeli cities. The artillery would be sufficiently protected and would be capable of causing widespread destruction. That’s powerful negotiating leverage, even if the artillery isn’t used. This is similar to the state Seoul is in - within range of NK artillery.

That’s why there is no 2 state solution the Israelis will agree to where the Palestinian state operates its own military. It might be morally right, but it would be a death sentence for Israel.

Source - Prisoners of Geography by Tim Marshall.

Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by biorach on Friday March 11, 2022 @12:25PM (#30642960)
> it would be a death sentence for Israel

That's a massive exaggeration.

It would theoretically be a risk for Israeli citizens living close to the border, but would lead to an overwhelming punitive response from the Israeli army, strongly backed by America.

Israel has by far the most capable military in the region, routinely inflicts casualty ratios of 10-20:1 in its favour in any conflict with Palestinians, and is backed by the most powerful military in the world.

The threat posed by an independent Palestine would be negligible. However the spectre of that threat is used to justify the continued occupation and expropriation of the West Bank.

Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by nindalf on Friday March 11, 2022 @12:38PM (#30643162)
Yes, just like the obviously better equipped South Korean armed forces will eventually defeat North Korea. They’re backed by the most powerful military in the world, as you say.

But artillery still exists. And if the enemy has the high ground and the cities are in the plains, the death toll will be in the tens of thousands before victory is achieved.

This is the reason every citizen in Seoul knows where the nearest bomb shelter is. I can understand (but not condone) someone wanting to avoid that fate.

Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by denton-scratch on Saturday March 12, 2022 @12:47AM (#30649265)
A two-state solution isn't wanted by Israel (at least, not by the settlers and their supporters), nor by most Palestinians. Israel wants to keep the whole of the West Bank. Most Palestinians would like to live in a single state that isn't based on apartheid and oppression.

It's really hard to imagine a two-state solution working, when leading Israeli politicians repeatedly declare that Israel consists of all the land between the Jordan and the sea. And even if it could be agreed, Israel would remain a segregated state. A single state with one-man one-vote would quickly put an end to apartheid, and to many of the most serious complaints of the Palestinians.

The argument against a single-state solution is that it would put an end to the idea of a "Jewish homeland". That is true; but a "Jewish homeland" must necessarily be an apartheid homeland, which discriminates against non-Jews.

Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by saiya-jin on Friday March 11, 2022 @09:45AM (#30640509)
Not arguing your statements, they make sense, but with this logic, horrible amoral inhumane things can be done (and are done daily) to innocent civilians basically forever, anywhere... not something I can accept.

Not that my opinion makes any meaningful impact on global scale, but I do at least vote with wallet and don't buy any Israeli products. I respect their military prowess but I have much higher moral expectations from place I will anyhow support with my money.

Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by galangalalgol on Friday March 11, 2022 @09:45AM (#30640510)
Fascinating! I may have to read that.
Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by umanwizard on Friday March 11, 2022 @08:41AM (#30639743)
Most recently in 1973. Their occupation has gone on for almost fifty years since then.
Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by denton-scratch on Friday March 11, 2022 @08:59AM (#30639947)
It is entirely irrelevant to the illegal occupation of the West Bank and the illegal transfer of populations into occupied territory.
Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by vivekd on Friday March 11, 2022 @08:51AM (#30639871)
But thats not the situation today, you cant base current policy on past grievances
Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by arielb1 on Friday March 11, 2022 @08:50AM (#30639849)
The people of the West Bank have engaged in terrorism against Israeli civilians up to 2005 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada - and that's not particularly ancient history.
Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by umanwizard on Friday March 11, 2022 @08:53AM (#30639885)
If the Ukraine war goes on for 50 more years you might start to see Ukrainians attacking Russian civilians too, once it’s clear they have no other option.
Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by msrenee on Friday March 11, 2022 @09:17AM (#30640161)
I don't have a lot of background in this, so tell me if I'm off-base. Israel is occupying land that it took from Palestine, is it not? I don't feel that terrorism is the correct term for attacks on an occupying force.
Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by bawolff on Friday March 11, 2022 @09:27AM (#30640297)
Umm, that's basically the definition of terrorism.

9/11 didn't happen out of the blue, it was a response to american foreign policy in the middle east.

The troubles didn't happen because the IRA thought British rule was legitimate

Etc.

The vast majority of terrorism is because one group is controlling a region that the other group thinks they should not.

Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by msrenee on Friday March 11, 2022 @02:50PM (#30645146)
I see what you mean. I never thought about it that way. It kind of just depends what side you're on whether it immediately leaps out as terrorism.
Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by bawolff on Friday March 11, 2022 @04:30PM (#30646263)
Yeah, typically if you agree with them they are "freedom fighters" if you don't they're "terrorists".

In my opinion, most long running conflicts tend to have both sides doing terrible things over the course of the conflict, so its rare there is one side that is "good" and one that is "evil".

Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by burnoutgal on Friday March 11, 2022 @09:02AM (#30639990)
The IDF have also murdered a lot of innocent palestinians, but if you do it dressed like a soldier somehow it's not "terrorism"
Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by denton-scratch on Friday March 11, 2022 @09:02AM (#30639992)
People in the UK have engaged in terrorism against UK citizens up until the present; that doesn't justify the UK occupying Ireland, and installing groups of settlers.

I know, that's exactly what England did under Cromwell; one of my ancestors was such a settler.

Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by hajile on Friday March 11, 2022 @09:11AM (#30640096)
Jordan started a war and lost territory as a result. How is this abnormal?
Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by bawolff on Friday March 11, 2022 @09:02AM (#30639991)
If you're making a comparison its pretty relavent.

If you don't consider the details of the situation, the comparison basically becomes so vauge as to be useless.

Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by mupuff1234 on Friday March 11, 2022 @08:41AM (#30639734)
If history doesn't matter why do you even consider it occupied territory?
Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by umanwizard on Friday March 11, 2022 @08:47AM (#30639817)
Because it’s under military occupation. And not recognized as Israeli territory by anyone, including Israel.

If the territory had been annexed and put under civilian law and everyone there had been given Israeli citizenship 60 years ago, I would indeed agree that although that was bad, it’s not worth crying over spilled milk in the present day, much like e.g. the British conquest of Quebec. But that’s not the case. It remains a military occupation and bad stuff continues to happen, today.

Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by bawolff on Friday March 11, 2022 @09:11AM (#30640093)
Quebec happened because britian and france signed a peace treaty that both sides respected. Nobody has managed to cobble together a peace treaty for the israel-palestine situation that actually got respected.
Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by Mikeb85 on Friday March 11, 2022 @09:31AM (#30640359)
Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by bawolff on Friday March 11, 2022 @10:27AM (#30641034)
I disagree, the peace of paris (with its conditions like respecting roman catholics) not the battle, is what lead to quebec being relatively peacefully integrated into british rule. (To be clear not saying that things were perfect or anything)
Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by jcranberry on Friday March 11, 2022 @09:32AM (#30640364)
It's also not a complete 1:1 because the a big reason they are holding these territories is for national security. The west bank and golan heights are both ideal places which can be used to launch rockets into israeli. They tried relinquishing the gaza strip and what immediately happened was hamas took over it and started firing rockets at israel. so they're not likely to change their mind about the other territories after that.
Re:Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian s... by reallydontask on Friday March 11, 2022 @08:54AM (#30639897)
West Bank occupation began on, or after, the six day war, a conflict started by Israel.