This is not about inter-religious marriages - this is about Arab or Christian Israeli citizens marrying other Arab or Christian Palestinians (or Lebanese and and a few other countries). This is as if the USA denied the right to extend your citizenship to a Mexican spouse - in some ways worse than the inter-religious thing.

> Arab or Christian

You mean Muslim or Christian (either of which can be Arab).

This is so annoying. It’s not rocket science to understand that Arabic is a language and you are only an Arab if your cultural language is Arabic.

Not all Arabs are Muslims and not all Muslims are Arabs.

It’s like saying that all who speak English are Christians. And all who are Christians speak English.

There are also many Arabic speaking Christians who don’t consider themselves to be Arabs culturally, and who definitely reject the label “Arab”.

They can choose to label themselves however they see fit, however under the guise of israeli law they are no different and are treated the same way as "Arab muslims" which speaks to the enormity of the racist jewish laws.

Most of the people I’m referring to aren’t in Israel, so Israeli law isn’t really relevant.

What do they call themselves?

The ones that I have known best called themselves "Armenians".

In Egypt they're called Copts.

Lebanese?

(Too deep so I can't reply to sibling...)

And there are Arabic speaking Muslims who don't consider themselves Arabs (e.g. in north Africa), as well as Arabic speaking christians who are Arabs (e.g. in Iraq).

Click on the permalink and then you can reply to infinity ;-)

Just imagine your from Africa and everyone in the Media talks about "Africa" as if Morocco and for example Tanzania can be compared ;)

Happens with everyplace. Like when college kids go on their first overseas trip to Spain and come back talking about how "people in Europe" eat dinner late or are less prudish or whatever. As if Barcelona is just like Tallinn and Zagreb.

You're not wrong. At the same time, there was/is a long period in history (centuries?) where "Christian" used as a general moniker that was more nationalist than religious. "The Christian world" etc.

Similarly, not all Christians in Israel or Ghaza are Arabs (though the vast majority are). I didn't want to list all somewhat significant ethnic minorities, so I thought Arab (Muslim, Christian, Druze, etc) + (non-Arabic) Christians (including Armeneans, Arameans, Copts, Assyrians and many other small groups, together making up something like 10k people)

> this is about Arab or Christian Israeli citizens

This is incorrect. There is no distinction in the law between Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis. The law applies equally to Israeli Jews who wish to marry a resident of the WB/Gaza, or one of the other countries mentioned in the law.

Are you trying to say that there's something inherent to the Jewish population that they're less likely to marry a non-Jewish person than a Muslim is to marry a non-Muslim?

No. They're saying that a Jewish Israeli citizen is less likely to marry a Palestinian than a Muslim Israeli citizen. And given public statements from the lawmakers advocating for this law, they agree.

An arab israeli is very likely to marry an arab from Palestine. I'm guessing a number close to zero Israeli Jews are looking to marry an arab from Palestine (religion, hate, etc).

I am not sure, where you draw that conclusion from, but yes that would be correct.

Because the jewish religious law (which many jews have to follow to peer pressure, even if they are not religious by themself) explicitely forbids marrying non jews and no one can convert to the jewish religion.

Muslims on the other hand can marry non muslims, but are supposed to convert them. So this is indeed way more comon.

> no one can convert to the jewish religion

Citation needed / this is not correct. It isn't easy, but it is perfectly kosher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism

Ok, it seems I have been wrong about this as a general statement and liberal (or even most?) jew movements indeed consider it possible.

Last time I checked - it seems I read a viewpoint from a rather orthodox rabbi (but his article was the first one, that showed up in google at that time, now I cannot find it anymore), which clearly stated, this is not possible at all, with no exception.

The only way, would be to recognized as a "lost jew", meaning being of jewish origin, who lost connection to the tribe (even some generations ago). And the recognition would need years of devotion.

Maybe that is the case with some small, insular sects of Orthodox Jews? Some of the groups among those often referred to as the "Ultra Orthodox" - I don't know.

It is not aligned with the vast majority of Jewish views about conversion to Judaism.

In general, conversion is possible. As far as I can tell there are even clearly-enough defined requirements.

Jews are not supposed to treat converts any differently than non-converts. People being people, this doesn't always happen, but that is the reasonable principle.

Given that Jews for centuries have not proselytized to non-Jews, many believe you cannot convert to Judaism. You can.

I really cannot find that article anymore, but yes, it seems it must have come from an ultra ultra orthodox section and who knows why it ranked number 1 on google at that time (some years ago), fooling me. Because apparently yes, you absolutely can convert to judaism. It just isn't easy, like it is with other religions.

It would be interesting to see the ration between the Arab Israelis wishing to marry an Arab from WB/Gaza and Jewish Israelis wishing to marry a Jewish from WB/Gaza. Laws make sense in a context of a society.

There is a fundamental difference between a law that prohibits a specific ethnicity from doing X, and a law that prohibits everyone from doing X, but a specific ethnicity/minority is more affected by it than others. The former is pretty much never legitimate, while the latter is often unavoidable, and I imagine exists to some extent in any country with minorities.

This law very explicitly discriminates against non-Jewish Palestinians (and Lebanese and a few others). It also disproportionately affects Israeli Arabs and others who are much more likely than Israeli Jews to have spouses who would be discriminated against by this law.

> The law applies equally to Israeli Jews who wish to marry a resident of the WB/Gaza

There is no problem for Israeli Jew to marry a resident of WB/Gaza who is also Israeli Jew. This happens all the time (except Gaza, no Israeli Jews live there).

Concept of Israeli Jew marrying a non-Jew (no matter the residency) doesn't exist in Israeli law.

The state may (but not obliged to) recognize the marriage registered abroad.

For non-Muslim non-Israeli spouses of Israeli Jews there is a 5+ year naturalization procedure where outcome is not guaranteed and every half a year one has to recount all the spots and birthmarks of significant other in front of state official to prove the marriage is not a fake.

This specific law is for Muslim non-Israeli spouses. Instead of 5+ year procedure it's just a firm "No".

> This is how the Middle East works by the way. Interreligious marriages are a very big deal and banned in every single Middle Eastern country.

Just to put some extra emphasis on quite how wrong this is: they are likely banned in almost no Middle Eastern country. Source: Married a woman from and in a Middle Eastern country under heavy sanctions just a few years ago.

Ironically, the law in question is not about the legality of the marriage, but about the rights of getting citizenship afterwards, and indeed, I would not be able to become a citizen of this country by way of my marriage, so in that sense, it is similar.

It is absolutely right. Want to look up what the legal stance in Egypt of an Egyptian Christian Male married a Muslim Woman? (even if she isn't Egyptian)

This isn't even remotely true. Anyone can marry inter-religiously in Turkey. Jewish, Christian or Muslim doesn't matter. Please get your facts right.

There is no law banning inter-religious marriage in Lebanon either.

What different churches and such allow in terms of inter-marriage is left up to them, just like in, say, the US. But no laws prevent religious intermarriage.

Yes. Turkey that genocided its Christian population a couple of generations ago.

Yes, that Turkey is more fair than Israel.

The world was very different a couple of generations ago, let alone the hundred years you're talking about. You'll be shocked to hear what happened 20 years later.

+1

The article doesn’t mention religion anywhere.

There are plenty of Christian and Muslim citizens of Israel, and plenty of Christian and Muslim Palestinians, so the marriages don’t have to be inter-religious.

Inter-religious marriages are already impossible in Israel, and have been AFAIK forever (but you can fly to e.g. Cyprus to have one performed and it will be recognized in Israel).

> "The State of Israel is Jewish and so it will remain," said Simcha Rothman of the far-right Religious Zionism party, a member of the opposition who brought the law forward with Interior Minister Ayelet Shaked. "Today, God willing, Israel's defensive shield will be significantly strengthened," he told the Knesset hours before the vote.

I'm baffled how the people who survived the Holocaust, among numerous other persecutions, are now so intolerant of another persecuted people.

There is something about being surrounded by people who actually want you dead that makes you somewhat rigid about instituting measures intended to keep you alive. I'm not arguing rights and wrongs, here. Merely human psychology.

One thing that stood out to me when reading about the Rwandan genocide was that Madeleine Albright—who lost three grandparents to the Holocaust and was touted as being humanitarian in part as a result—was center of the US' diligent refusal to acknowledge the genocide they were watching unfold, and recasting of the Genocide Convention as merely allowing intervention in genocide. (It obligates intervention.)

Less than a year after the Holocaust Museum in DC opened its doors, proudly declaring "Never Again".

Funny enough, the Holocaust is the exact reason that these sorts of things are justified. It isn't out of malice, but out of a perceived need to protect themselves from the possibly of it EVER happening again. The collective trauma of being exiled from numerous European countries, the progroms in Russia and having ~6 million of your people systematically murdered in Germany overrides any guilt for infringing on intermarriage rights of people who aren't exactly your closest allies and continue to . I don't support the law, but it is important to understand the broader context in which it is passed and the purpose of the state of Israel to those that live there.

Not really commenting about the law. But as an arab from a country that Israel has tried to unsuccessfully invade about 3 times now.

We had nothing to do with the holocaust. Germans and their friends were complicit.

Im genuinely interested in how come normal people of the world don’t really flinch at what Israel was allowed to do and what it keeps doing.

I don’t blame Israelis who were born there since we have little control over where we’re born and how we’re raised.

Apologies for the rant, but why does it make sense in the broader context to allow israeli actions that directly cause palestinian suffering if all of the jews’ suffering was caused by the germans?

Almost all humans (and many other species) get tribal once allocation of limited resources comes into play.

Before the holocaust Jews were slowly but surely integrating into European society. The Nazis basically altered the timeline.

Israeli right-wingers don’t see Palestinians as a persecuted minority in a vacuum. They see them as members of the Arab ethnicity of the surrounding states which are much larger in size and population. In the late 1960s Syria and Egypt actually formed into one state and tried to annihilate and absorb Israel in a pincer movement. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_Republic

What you say is true but it is also true that the religious minorities in Israel don't amount for much when it comes to the law. Israel's 'religious right' (the ultra-orthodox parties) have a lot of influence over marriage law in particular.

ultra-orthodox are not right wing, in general they are apolitical and will join any type of coalition as long as they get the budget for their community.

Religious parties (that is, parties who seek to further the goals of a religion) are by definition right-wing.

FWIW, this law is not banning marriage, rather it's preventing Palestinians from becoming automatically naturalized citizens through marrying an Israeli citizen.

That's the point. There is no path to becoming "naturalized", a legal resident or much more-so a citizen in your own country - whether you see that as Palestine or Israel. This is just one more mechanism to humiliate a population of millions.

Of course nobody cares that an Israeli Jew marrying a Lebanese, or a Jordanian, or an Egyptian, let alone a Saudi citizen, can't get Lebanese or Jordanian or Egyptian or Saudi citizenship.

But Israel must give citizenship to everyone... right?

This is happening between Palestinians. You can call them Arab Israelis if you want but they still identify as Palestinians. Splitting them up for the sake of division with these policies is political and systematic.

And yes a double standard applies compared to other countries because Israel identifies as a western liberal democracy whereas the others don’t or no one implies that they seriously are.

Main problem here that if Israeli citizen will decide to marry a Lebanese, or a Jordanian, or an Egyptian or even Saudi citizen, they won't be able to live in Israel.

Outrage of non-Israelis about is law is merely academical. Outrage of (some of) Israelis is practical: the state is putting a choice in front of a citizen -- be able to marry a person you want or be able to live in Israel.

Why is it not a problem that they won't be able to live in Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt or Saudi Arabia? This outrage looks like a double standard to me.

Because I'm not a citizen of Lebanon, Jordan or Egypt. As an Israeli citizen I share the responsibility and am obliged to react to any colonial era exercise the government is trying to pull off.

That doesn't excuse applying double standards.

See how much people this article misguided? Incredible!

This isn't really about interreligious marriages; it mostly affects Muslim Arab Israeli Citizens marrying Muslim Palestinians.

Unless Iran is not in the Middle East, you're 100% wrong about Iran. Lots of people I know married (officially in Iran) to their Iranian spouse from other religions.

I would assume most of these aren’t interreligious, but beetween Israeli Arab Muslims, and Palestinian Muslims.

As far as being banned in every Middle Eastern country… not true. I know a few Bahraini females married to Brits. Interracial and interreligous. In Lebanon, and Jordan, this happens between Christians and Muslims as well. Which countries would lynch you?

I’m not sure but this NOT how Middle East work. At least not in Lebanon and Egypt.

Anyway this is just wrong - even is some other countries do that.

Egypt has a lynching every 3 month or so because of an inter-religious relationship[0]. Lebanon had a religious civil war a generation ago, and would probably end up in another one soon if things continue as they are.

0. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/markaz/2016/06/20/what-egypt-...

What an insidious way to justify the action!

Please explain how the #23 ranked country in the democracy index(higher than countries such as Italy, Spain and the US) and the #24 highest GDP per capita(higher than UK, France and South Korea) is not more of a western country then authoritarian regimes like Jordan, Turkey or Egypt? Israel has one of the largest pride parades in the world (300k+ people) and equal rights for LGBTQ people. Please look up what happens to the LGBTQ community in the countries you mentioned. Israel is a western country with western values and allies, we just have a very hard and not so easy to solve as people on HN think issue with the Palestinians which I hope would be solved some day in our lifetime

What does the ultra-Orthodox Jews think about those parades?

Just by the demographics alone, those guys will be in charge very soon. (or Israel will cease to be democratic).

So yes, Israel is not there yet, but well on its way. (and I have no problems with that, as long as they don't try to impose their religious values on me).

As an atheist-jew living in Israel, I will be the first to denounce ultra-orthodox Jews living in Israel and their chosen lifestyle, and I truly hope they won't ever become a majority here. But like you said, until then- It's a western country with western values through and through

No it isn't. In my country religion has no impact whatsoever in who you can marry or your citizenship.

Israel is not "just like us". It is a country founded on a religion. It treats that religion as superior and grants it more status. To be harsh Israel is more like KSA and Iran.

Right, but a large number of Palestinians are Christian. The law doesn’t seem to apply to a Jewish Israeli who marries an American Christian, only a Jewish Israeli who marries a Palestinian.

This is certainly not the case with Iran either.

Honestly it seems like you're just making shit up.

not true , trying to justifying the Israel action by saying false information

Actually, it's not quite that. Israel doesn't issue marriage licenses in the first place--they leave marriage up to the various religions. A Jew can't marry a Muslim in Israel because neither of their faiths will permit it.

Is this true? I've seen Christian (Arminian) and Muslim couples in Iran.

This is simply not true. While Inter-religious marriages are often frowned upon, no law prevent any person from a middle east country to marry another person on the basis of different religious background. Please give your sources.

Parent is spreading misinformation.

Not true for Turkey.