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Re:How Does This End? by dimal on Saturday March 05, 2022 @07:49PM (#30573753)
Wait. What? People are cheering on the idea of nuclear conflict? I missed that. Links?
Re:How Does This End? by it_does_follow on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:06PM (#30573882)
I second this question. In the last few days I've heard pretty heavy reference to "people cheering on nuclear war" but haven't seen it first hand anywhere. A link to an opinion piece that explicitly states this, or even a few high-profile twitter accounts espousing this view would at least convince me it's happening.

Heck, even browsing reddit comments and hacker news comments I've seen no view encouraging nuclear war. Even 4chan doesn't seem to have any posts proclaiming this view.

Re:How Does This End? by armitron on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:25PM (#30574009)
In realpolitik terms, nuclear war is the most likely outcome of any further escalation w/ NATO including the US / West refusing to lose face / back off. It's just that most folks do not think in such terms and are crafting delusions where that doesn't take place: Revolution in Russia! Putin will be overthrown! Minor nuclear escalation then everyone will back off! Let's have NATO get involved in Ukraine then it'll be on the Russians if they pull the trigger! They would never dare!

People are talking about the Russians being brainwashed, but read most of the comments in this thread and you'll realize they're far from being the only ones.

Re:How Does This End? by somedude895 on Sunday March 06, 2022 @02:21AM (#30575715)
> further escalation w/ NATO including the US / West refusing to lose face / back off.

Here's a sovereign nation that tries to save its independence, pleading with the West / EU / NATO for protection. Then you have a ruler who has been saying for years that that nation should not exist and should be part of his empire, then proceeds to invade.

The framing of this as a NATO vs Russia issue, where NATO should "back down" to prevent further escalation, making Ukraine merely a pawn in some greater game, is absolutely disgusting.

Re:How Does This End? by phire on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:32PM (#30574062)
I haven't seen people cheering on the idea of nuclear conflict.

What I have seen is large groups of people taking the position that the West should not let Russia use threats of a potential Nuclear war to bully the west around too much. That the West should not back down just because Russia has Nukes and is threatening to use them.

Some of them may offer views that Putin might be bluffing, or that his command structure might not follow the order to launch a large scale strike. Or that Russian Nuclear weapons are probably so poorly maintained that they won't even get off the ground anyway.

But these people seem to generally accept that their position might lead to a full-scale nuclear conflict, and that's a risk that is worth taking.

I personally don't think these views should be descried as "cheering on the idea of a nuclear conflict", but there probably people taking on the position that anything other than avoiding further escalation counts as "pro nuclear conflict". I have absolutely seen Russian diplomats taking this position.

Re:How Does This End? by vandreas2 on Sunday March 06, 2022 @04:16AM (#30576190)
Putin has to be seen to threaten and others have to be seen to threaten to meet him. Otherwise why stop at Ukraine when he can keep threatening?
Re:How Does This End? by lamp987 on Saturday March 05, 2022 @07:57PM (#30573824)
Plenty of people call for NATO enforcing no-fly-zone over Ukraine, including Ukrainian president.
Re:How Does This End? by lexapro on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:11PM (#30573922)
That's not exactly "cheering on nuclear escalation" though. I'm against further escalation, but I'm also against the notion that even the slightest western intervention is immoral because it might anger Mr. Putin into starting a nuclear war.
Re:How Does This End? by kragen on Saturday March 05, 2022 @10:01PM (#30574621)
NATO enforcing a no-fly zone over Ukraine would entail NATO blowing up radar and SAM installations manned by Russian soldiers in Russia near the Ukrainian border. I'm no expert on politics or warfare but it sure seems like NATO directly attacking Russia like that would be pretty likely to result in MIRV launches.
Re:How Does This End? by lamp987 on Sunday March 06, 2022 @06:08PM (#30582198)
NATO military directly attacking Russian military means nuclear war. Thats what MAD is all about.
Re:How Does This End? by spsful on Saturday March 05, 2022 @09:04PM (#30574292)
0 links provided, point dismissed
Re:How Does This End? by lamp987 on Sunday March 06, 2022 @06:07PM (#30582188)
Ok.
Re:How Does This End? by scotty79 on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:06PM (#30573880)
That's not nuclear escalation. Assuming that is taking Putin at his word. Which is worth nothing.
Re:How Does This End? by dwmbt on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:19PM (#30573971)
perhaps i am too young and naive, but i am terrified of playing that game. i'm very glad i took up a career where these are dinner-time conversations and that i don't have to bear the weight of making those kinds of decisions. can i ask why you think it's a bluff from putin?

for my entire life, the media has portrayed him as either an evil genius or a mad-man (sometimes, both). in any case, it's painted a picture of a man perfectly capable of taking everyone down with him. why should i think otherwise?

note: i am being completely earnest in this response. in the last week, i have thrown up several times post doom-scrolling on twitter. i had to delete the app. i am convinced this will end up with everyone in dust. my mind has reverted to the following quote from The Wasteland several times:

<< "And I will show you something different from either

<< Your shadow at morning striding behind you

<< Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;

<< I will show you fear in a handful of dust."

Re:How Does This End? by rad_gruchalski on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:38PM (#30574106)
> perhaps i am too young and naive, but i am terrified of playing that game.

The problem with this approach is that in every future conflict this argument will be in play and so in every future conflict there is no plausible way to finish the conflict other than let the aggressor roll with it.

This might be the first time when a nuclear weapon is used offensively without being fired.

Re:How Does This End? by scotty79 on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:29PM (#30574037)
Exactly bacause he's evil genius, and a madman or both or none of those why would we consider any word comming out of his mouth to be related in any way to his behavior?

He might use nukes just because he's loosing in Ukraine.

He might use them at any point because he already feels threatened.

He might use them because he had a bad dream.

How can we take any of this into account?

The only thing we can do is to choose the fiction we believe in.

And I think correct fiction to believe in is the one that Putin won't use too many nukes if NATO won't cross Russia borders and clearly advertises that intent.

And if Putin really uses some nukes (probably against military targets in Ukraine) and NATO won't respond with their nukes, just with conventional means, nuclear restraint won't be broken, by anyone except a clear madman

Re:How Does This End? by gambiting on Saturday March 05, 2022 @07:59PM (#30573836)
I do, because I believe we should call Putin's bluff. He wouldn't dare to shoot down NATO planes above Ukraine and would have to back down. In line with that, I don't believe NATO planes shooting down russian planes above Ukraine or vice versa would lead to a nuclear escalation.
Re:How Does This End? by jacquesm on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:36PM (#30574093)
He shot down a passenger airliner and got away with it. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't give two fucks about shooting down NATO war planes. Just so we're clear on that.
Re:How Does This End? by bombcar on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:05PM (#30573870)
Are you sure the world would react the way you expect to a NATO shoot down? To a nuke in Poland? Maybe our side isn’t willing to roast 100s of millions of Russians if push came to shove.
Re:How Does This End? by gambiting on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:09PM (#30573904)
I don't know how you arrived from "shooting a plane above Ukraine" to a "nuke in Poland".

And no, of course we don't have any guarantees either way. But just like Putin puts his troops in Ukraine and says "what are you going to do about it", I believe we should do the same thing back - impose a no fly zone above Ukraine and call his idiotic bluff, he knows what attacking NATO would mean for him too.

Re:How Does This End? by armitron on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:32PM (#30574063)
Normally, I'd find your comment amusing, but I know there are policy folks out there with decision-making power that are pushing similar utterly idiotic narratives. That's very scary.
Re:How Does This End? by Koshkin on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:23PM (#30573998)
Oh yes he would dare. For him, the Ukrainian airspace is no different from Russia’s own.
Re:How Does This End? by vandreas2 on Sunday March 06, 2022 @04:10AM (#30576162)
Or so he says. There is be no point in bombing your own territory though.
Re:How Does This End? by Koshkin on Sunday March 06, 2022 @11:32AM (#30578680)
And he won't be bombing his own.
Re:How Does This End? by tasha0663 on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:29PM (#30574040)
Any and all escalation goes in this direction. It's not hard to see. Don't be a fool on purpose.