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Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by RistrettoMike on Saturday March 05, 2022 @04:56PM (#30572323)
It's incredible to me to that while this, a slightly older DSLR, and a classic SLR film camera all have similar silhouettes and ergonomics you can watch the digital technology replace the insides over the last 25 years.

It's a stark comparison to see the ribbon cables and stacked daughter boards under the rear panel here where the film reels used to live. No greater takeaway here, just incredible to see a common form stay similar in many ways externally, yet have it's internals so totally overhauled.

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by justinpowers on Saturday March 05, 2022 @05:03PM (#30572390)
Agreed. I wonder why?

Maybe professionals prefer the familiar ergonomics?

Or there’s a certain prestige carried by the traditional camera silhouette?

No idea. And I can’t think of another analog-to-digital transition that also maintained its outer form so thoroughly.

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by fleddr on Saturday March 05, 2022 @05:45PM (#30572732)
There are no other options I can think of.

Sensors on full-frame DSLR/Mirrorless systems are large so you're going to have to keep a significantly sized rectangle clear.

Assuming right-handed use, you're going to extend that rectangle to the right for a grip, that also need to have depth. Not optional as any of these cameras might see some very heavy lenses attached to them.

You need a viewfinder, where the only logical option is on top. Same for flash connections. The only alternative is no viewfinder at all, just the back screen, but this can't be done because sports and wildlife photographers will always require an eye piece.

All connections (video, mic, data, remote flash) have to be on the left as the right side is taken for the grip which typically features the memory card slots.

The bottom of the camera has to be flat, it needs to support tripod use, video brackets and battery grips. Realistically, the battery chamber can only be at the bottom, given that all other space is already used.

Concluding, the layout makes sense. You could move around connections but it doesn't change the shape of the camera, nor does it improve anything. So it's a logical timeless design, not really a prestige thing.

As somebody else already said: the old design was not specifically analog, only the internals were.

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by justinpowers on Saturday March 05, 2022 @06:15PM (#30572960)
Thanks. This all makes sense.

I guess the bigger surprise to me is that there wasn’t anything newly extraneous or improvable as a result of the transition.

Electric guitars come to mind, they are largely the same except in two regards:

The body is much shallower. This of course is due to no longer needing a soundbox. But further, it’s because a shallow body brings the strings closer to the player and puts the arm in a more comfortable position. The large deep soundbox not only became extraneous after the transition, it was also always a bit of an unavoidable hindrance in the first place.

The body shape changed as well. This was due to aesthetic freedom as a result of not needing a soundbox.

Cameras, on the other hand, could of course change the aesthetic for fun, but I guess there is no need for in-the-moment showmanship when it comes to camerawork and camera aficionados just don’t care for flash? ;) And maybe any change would just get in the way (though arguably some guitar shapes are inconvenient as well yet nonetheless desirable to some).

In the end, I guess the physical limitations of the camera either are still present (like large telescopic lenses) or had already been condensed into a small enough size that they no longer hindered better ergonomics

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by kalleboo on Saturday March 05, 2022 @07:30PM (#30573587)
The YouTube channel "Cathode Ray Dude" has covered some of the attempts by camera makers to take advantage of the new possibilities of digital sensors with new form factors that never caught on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpJBHjl9_VU
Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by asdfasgasdgasdg on Saturday March 05, 2022 @07:16PM (#30573469)
The body of mirrorless current gen cameras is also substantially shallower than older SLR and DSLRs. This is because the system to bounce light to the viewfinder is no longer needed. Most of the rest of the form is constrained by physics and ergonomics, so it doesn't change due to this new technology.
Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by astrange on Sunday March 06, 2022 @02:37AM (#30575761)
That’s actually not true - lens design on SLRs can be very compromised due to the extra distance to the film, which isn’t necessary on mirrorless since it hasn’t got a mirror.

This means mirrorless cameras have smaller lenses and can use all kinds of cheap older rangefinder lenses. People seem to think “SLR” means “film camera” though and don’t know that rangefinders exist.

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by asdfasgasdgasdg on Sunday March 06, 2022 @09:19AM (#30577745)
What did I say that was not true? Despite what you've said, it's still true that a through the lens view is possible with shallower cameras due to the advent of the digital camera. Actually I don't see how your comment contradicts anything I wrote.
Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by astrange on Sunday March 06, 2022 @03:44PM (#30581083)
You said most of the rest of the camera can’t change, but lenses are part of the camera and can change.
Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by asdfasgasdgasdg on Sunday March 06, 2022 @05:42PM (#30582020)
I said, "most of the rest of the form is constrained by physics and ergonomics," and that still seems true? At a minimum, if digital camera construction has substantially changed the constraints on lenses, this fact has not led to a significant change in their overall form, to the best of my knowledge. If digital sensors substantially changed the physical possibilities, then perhaps it is ergonomics preventing them from changing.
Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by astrange on Sunday March 06, 2022 @06:12PM (#30582226)
You can see a comparison at the top here:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/rangefinder-vs-slr.htm

Sony sells wide angle "pancake" lenses that beat the ones for SLRs at compactness:

https://www.backscatter.com/Sony-E-20mm-f-2.8-Pancake-Lens

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/12082-USA/Canon_2509A...

Though there's some small SLR lenses too, I think they distort more or it takes longer to figure out the optics - not an expert there.

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by asdfasgasdgasdg on Sunday March 06, 2022 @09:55PM (#30583729)
Ken is mistaken about the size comparison, at least between that Leica and the Canon lens. The Canon is a wide zoom. Zooms with autofocus are of course going to be much larger than a manual focus, slow 21mm prime. (That prime is 3x as expensive, two stops slower, and lacking an autofocus motor compared to Sony's similar offering: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1126141-REG/sony_sel0....)

I will also note that pancake lenses have been around since the sixties and I believe that there were pancake lenses compatible with DSLR lens mounts.

Suffice it to say I'm not sure I can say I am convinced DSLR optics are disadvantageous vs. mirrorless optics. I wish Ken would cite some sources because on Google his claim is the first and only relevant one document that turns up for a few pages.

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by fleddr on Monday March 07, 2022 @07:59AM (#30587204)
As others have mentioned, there's been some minor changes. Back screens have gotten a lot bigger, new viewfinders are digital, and mirrorless cameras are often a bit shallower. But it's true that overall the basics are the same.

I guess the big difference between a guitar and a camera is that a guitar is performative. The guitar and its looks itself are part of the output, along with the sound it produces. Nobody looks at a photographer the same way, we tend to care about their output only.

Personally, I don't find camera design to be boring, ugly or outdated in any sense. In fact, there's few products I can think of that are this well designed. The current layout and ergonomics are battle-tested across a timeline of about a full century.

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by formerly_proven on Sunday March 06, 2022 @06:47AM (#30576882)
Sony used to have a more straight-lined design in their cameras and very shallow grips. People didn't like that because the ergonomics are poor. That's why Sony cameras started to look more and more like a Nikon or Canon in each generation.

DSLRs are actually fatter than film SLRs because in a film SLR only the film plate and back are behind the focal plane, which are thin (~3-5mm), while DSLRs stack the sensor board, main board, display etc. behind the focal plane, so they got 15+ mm behind the focal plane. Mirrorless cameras with IBIS tend to increase the back-to-focal-plane distance further due to more involved cooling and IBIS.

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by sprobertson on Saturday March 05, 2022 @06:20PM (#30573007)
> The only alternative is no viewfinder at all, just the back screen, but this can't be done because sports and wildlife photographers will always require an eye piece.

I'm curious about what makes the eye piece a requirement for these particular photographers (and if/how it could be done away with).

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by perardi on Saturday March 05, 2022 @09:25PM (#30574428)
That’s just ergonomics.

You are shooting with a long lens. Unless you have the camera on a tripod/monopod, it’s much more stable to have the camera braced against your body with the viewfinder up against your eye, versus trying to hold 5 pounds of very long lens at arm’s length.

(Nikon 200–500mm lens in this case. Trust me. Way easier to support that chonker when it’s held close to the body when running around to shoot rugby.)

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by KineticLensman on Saturday March 05, 2022 @11:42PM (#30575083)
On many cameras you can set the viewfinder to match the prescription of your eye-glasses. I need glasses to see data displayed on the rear screen, but can easily read the viewfinder data without them. Saves a lot of faffing around
Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by muro on Sunday March 06, 2022 @02:19AM (#30575706)
Exactly the opposite for me - possibly für to astigmatism, I only use the rear screen, as then I can use glasses, but I don't see sharply through the viewfinder and with glasses it's just uncomfortable.
Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by sgt101 on Sunday March 06, 2022 @03:03AM (#30575874)
My wife is a pro, she's actually in a bit of a hole over this issue.

Her eyesight has changed, the focus correction on the eye piece is not working well for her now (it has limited correction range) and her glasses are in the way. Using the back screen is difficult outside because of the sun and speed. Also strength; holding a camera with a big lens at arm's length all day is hard for her.

So - contacts, which she hates and her eyes react badly to.

She might have to pack up, which would be very upsetting for her having built a business and because she get's a lot out of her work.

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by Findecanor on Sunday March 06, 2022 @07:54AM (#30577273)
The sun can both outshine the brightest screen, and blind the photographer's eyes. Using a viewfinder avoids both those issues.

The alternatives in strong sunlight would be a rigid hood around the screen (which exist as accessories), or a fabric hood covering the screen and photographer (like what early photographers used).

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by justinpowers on Saturday March 05, 2022 @06:39PM (#30573163)
I would guess it has to do with zero latency.

And possibly easier aiming/coordination/stability with the camera and hands at not just eye-level, but also nearly right up against the eye, moving in unison with one’s head. Just a guess though. Sports television cameramen seem to do just find tracking the ball without using a viewfinder.

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by riceo100 on Saturday March 05, 2022 @07:06PM (#30573388)
In this particular camera and many other mirrorless cameras, the viewfinder is another digital display. My guess would be they’re required for making it easier to focus in direct sunlight. I tend to only use the viewfinder in this situation (on an a7s ii and a1)
Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by bradlys on Saturday March 05, 2022 @09:21PM (#30574403)
It’s also much more difficult to hold a camera at arms length to view the screen.

When you hold up a camera to your eye and use the viewfinder - it’s a third point of contact. You’re also using your face to stabilize it.

Trust me - they’d get rid of the damn viewfinder if it wasn’t often requested so much. Using the viewfinder is just a lot easier than the back of the screen in many situations. (Especially outdoors. Think about rain or whatever else going on getting on the screen)

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by axiolite on Saturday March 05, 2022 @11:34PM (#30575062)
> I can’t think of another analog-to-digital transition that also maintained its outer form so thoroughly.

Keyboards.

TV cameras.

Hi-Fi stereo systems.

Movie theatres.

Desk telephones.

Headsets & Ear buds

2-way radios.

Magnetic tape.

Automobile engines.

(Coaxial) cable & tuners/receivers.

Likely quite a lot more examples.

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by ChrisMarshallNY on Saturday March 05, 2022 @09:12PM (#30574345)
> Maybe professionals prefer the familiar ergonomics?

Not just pros. The manufacturer actually aims for the "prosumer" market. They do this, by building for the pros, but marketing to the prosumer.

It works well.

But expect the ergonomics to slowly morph, as the consumer base evolves.

Big changes in familiar forms don’t usually work. I suspect that one reason Teslas sell so well, is because they don’t actually look very different from traditional ICE cars. I don’t think that whacky CyberTruck is gonna be very popular.

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by sgt101 on Sunday March 06, 2022 @02:56AM (#30575837)
Wrt. tesla the interior (especially the dash) is a major sticking point for "petrolheads". Folks like the dials and levers on ICE - the touch screen and ikea style finish is quite dissonant.
Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by franga2000 on Sunday March 06, 2022 @03:13AM (#30575915)
I don't care about the finish, but I find the touchscreen to be stupid, unusable and reckless or even dangerous choice, despite being a big fan of EVs.

A touch screen is only ever the optimal user interface for general purpose computers and sometimes navigating through virtual 2D/3D space. In every other use case, dedicated controls are superior in every regard.

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by sgt101 on Sunday March 06, 2022 @06:11AM (#30576687)
It's a valid pov. I acknowledge what you say.

On the other hand I find I hardly use any of the controls or readouts in the Tesla, just the speed limit really.

The indicators are on the stick, and the wipers and lights are automatic. There's not much reason to go to the touchscreen on the move - apart from the change the audio.

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by ChrisMarshallNY on Sunday March 06, 2022 @07:08AM (#30577007)
There was that article that was linked here, a few weeks ago, by Scott Jenson[0], about his experience with a Tesla Model 3.

The gist was that the climate control was so difficult to use, that it was actually a safety hazard.

I’ve found that haptic feedback can be quite useful.

But really, there’s no substitute for good old-fashioned, user-focused design.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30140984

Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by sudosysgen on Saturday March 05, 2022 @05:08PM (#30572427)
Well, DSLR/MILCs really aren't that different from film SLRs. The sensor replaced the film to be exposed, and the battery replaced the film cannister. For mirrorless cameras the EVF replaced the reflex mechanism. Everything else is the same, so with similar design constraints it makes sense a similar form factor would emerge.
Re:Sony A1 Complete Disassembly and Teardown by BolexNOLA on Saturday March 05, 2022 @05:34PM (#30572642)
Hate to be that guy, but ackshooaly it’s a mirrorless, not a DSLR.