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Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by DangitBobby on Friday March 04, 2022 @01:47AM (#30551459)
I definitely support making GPUs less attractive to miners. I'd buy a card that could be remotely disabled when usage patterns matched crypto mining if it meant I could spend MSRP on a modern card.
Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by zelon88 on Friday March 04, 2022 @03:37AM (#30552166)
You would allow hardware DRM in your box just to allow Nvidia to "revoke" ownership of your card when you use it "incorrectly".

Yeah I'll pass.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by throw10920 on Friday March 04, 2022 @03:51PM (#30560376)
The parent comment makes no mention of giving Nvidia control over the GPU. You know you can have remote access features that are solely under your control, right? That's how SSH works.

You should read comments before you reply to them.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by mattwilsonn888 on Friday March 04, 2022 @10:48PM (#30564060)
This is so painfully pedantic and obviously not what the original commenter meant. What point would a remote killswitch have to deter crypto miners if the owner of the card (the crypto miner) fully controlled it as you imply. Use your head.
Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by zelon88 on Friday March 04, 2022 @06:47PM (#30562172)
> I'd buy a card that could be remotely disabled when usage patterns matched crypto mining...

What does LHR and SSH have in common? How does 3rd party LHR make any sense.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by fomine3 on Sunday March 06, 2022 @09:33PM (#30583581)
You may feel you own Windows.
Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by Mindwipe on Friday March 04, 2022 @04:31AM (#30552495)
I can see why it's attractive when the alternative is no card at all.
Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by oarsinsync on Friday March 04, 2022 @06:44AM (#30553406)
Short term thinking can often appear to be attractive in the short term. It's the long term implications that get you, and by then it's too late.
Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by bart_spoon on Friday March 04, 2022 @10:18AM (#30555987)
At what point does short term become long term? Crypto mining has been an issue for people looking to obtain GPUs going back to at least 2016, which is when I built my first PC, and its only gotten worse and worse as time has gone on.
Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by rhn_mk1 on Friday March 04, 2022 @11:37AM (#30557001)
When it spills over and becomes a common practice beyond the scope of the original problem?
Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by danaris on Friday March 04, 2022 @08:25AM (#30554369)
Allowing/supporting crypto mining is short-term thinking.

It's a bunch of wealthy people burning absurd amounts of fossil fuels solely for the purpose of making themselves wealthier. There is no benefit to society from allowing this.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by matheusmoreira on Friday March 04, 2022 @09:47AM (#30555524)
> There is no benefit to society from allowing this.

Sure there is. We get a financial system that's independent of banks and governments. I don't care how much energy it consumes, that's a worthy goal.

Also, it's not even 1% of global energy consumption and even that calculation is based on rather questionable assumptions like "energy usage is proportional to bitcoin price". If you want to stop the burning of fossil fuels, what you need to do is advocate against trade with not only China but also all western countries whose luxurious lifestyles are literally dependent on such wasteful use of resources. Gotta level heavy economic sanctions against all the highly polluting developed nations until they put a stop to it.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by danaris on Friday March 04, 2022 @10:26AM (#30556076)
> We get a financial system that's independent of banks and governments. I don't care how much energy it consumes, that's a worthy goal.

I see it as exactly the opposite.

We live in a society, and as a society, we have agreed upon certain rules about how money is handled. If you want to opt out of those rules, then get out of our society.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by tharne on Saturday March 05, 2022 @05:11PM (#30572451)
> We live in a society, and as a society, we have agreed upon certain rules about how money is handled. If you want to opt out of those rules, then get out of our society.

Even the friends of mine who work in the banking industry will tell you that the current financial system is a rigged game that serves the elite and well-connected at the expense of ordinary people.

Reasonable people can disagree about the relative benefits and harms of cryptocurrency, but trying to make the case that the current financial system reflects some sort of happy societal consensus is roughly on par with being a lobbyist for big tobacco.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by matheusmoreira on Friday March 04, 2022 @10:39AM (#30556240)
I'm not opting out of anything, nor am I leaving. Those "rules" form the backbone of the financial arm of total global surveillance. I oppose them on principle, as should everyone on this site. I want to see them either repealed or completely neutralized with subversive technology such as cryptocurrency. The only problem here is the fact that so much energy is being wasted on the failure that is bitcoin. I wouldn't mind even higher amounts being poured into Monero.

"Agreed upon" rules? This stuff is imposed on us.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by danaris on Friday March 04, 2022 @12:40PM (#30557829)
Only in the same sense that laws are "imposed on" criminals. You may not have personally agreed to it, but it's part of the legal framework our society rests on.
Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by matheusmoreira on Friday March 04, 2022 @05:14PM (#30561322)
Criminals like murderers? Yeah, everyone agrees with that, it's not controversial. Total surveillance? Not everyone accepts this fundamental injustice. Their actions violate the principles countries like the USA were literally founded upon. As far as we're concerned, they're the criminals here and this technology is just self-defense against their continued abuse.
Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by icejjfish on Friday March 04, 2022 @08:57AM (#30554758)
They’re not merely making themselves wealthier - they’re providing a service. How is this different from an airline or any other user of fossil fuel?
Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by bart_spoon on Friday March 04, 2022 @10:21AM (#30556021)
Because the service as it stands is of dubious (or negative) worth. So far its main uses are enabling illegal activity and MLM-style get rich quick schemes. For all of the hubbub about the crypto-revolution, we are over a decade in and 99% of its use falls into those two categories.
Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by Consultant32452 on Friday March 04, 2022 @11:25AM (#30556850)
I was sympathetic to that view right up until the Canadian government froze the bank accounts of the truckers. Now I'm openly supportive of the activities the regimes don't like in crypto.
Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by antifa on Sunday March 06, 2022 @02:22PM (#30580293)
> they’re providing a service

Doubling the price of GPUs is a pretty bad service.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by throwaway0a5e on Friday March 04, 2022 @06:35AM (#30553356)
The alternative is not "no card" it's "don't buy a top of the line card"

Every expensive product with potential commercial use has this situation. Anything you can easily make money with has a price that reflects it. People who want stuff for limited use cannot justify those kinds of prices so they have to buy older stuff, lesser stuff or stuff that needs effort/time dumped in in order to work.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by tsss on Friday March 04, 2022 @02:11PM (#30559022)
The alternative _is_ no card. Even 5 year old cards are twice the MSRP if you can get them.
Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by ehnto on Friday March 04, 2022 @02:07AM (#30551591)
Is there some practical way to delineate the two product usages that isn't arbitrary I wonder?

Maybe make mining only cards more performant and affordable than consumer graphics cards, so that consumer cards will drop in price from less demand?

I find it hard to believe that a use case specific device wouldn't be able to dethrone graphics cards as the better choice for miners at the right price, and it should be cheaper right? No need for all that extra graphics related componentry like visual ports etc.

I know stuff like that is already on the market, but it's usually more expensive as they are from more niche manufacturing. NVidia has the scale to make a similar device more affordable I imagine.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by randomsilence on Friday March 04, 2022 @02:37AM (#30551774)
You would have to saturate the market with specific mining devices. Like with bitcoin ASIC miners, the crypto mining demands have to increase to the point where using gaming graphic cards becomes unprofitable. Otherwise miners will buy the specific mining devices and the gaming devices. The problem is that Etherum was designed to resist ASIC approaches.

Instead of locking cards down, Nvidia could manage the supply. They could sell their cards in cooperation with Steam: Only people with an active steam account are eligible to a new card. If their performance stats don't improve after the purchase, which means they have resold their hardware, they won't be allowed to buy another card.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by eru on Friday March 04, 2022 @03:12AM (#30551997)
> If their performance stats don't improve after the purchase, which means they have resold their hardware, they won't be allowed to buy another card.

And then you have people who lose their cards, or it gets damaged, or who don't want Steam, etc. It's a big can of worms.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by randomsilence on Friday March 04, 2022 @03:36AM (#30552155)
Not wanting Steam is the biggest issue. They could include further shops and even individual games. There also needs to be an option for people who want to do scientific computing. Having vouchers from scientific institutions would exclude everybody who is independent. The approach has to be refined a bit, but the general principle is that you can link cards to individuals.

To balance the downsides, Nvidia doesn't have to go all in on 'Steam sales', like Sony, who sells some of their PS5 to registered gamers but not all of them.

On the other hand, I don't see the problem with damaged or lost cards. Damaged cards can be treated like guarantees: send in your damaged card and buy a new one. Lost cards on their own are a problem but how do you lose your card? You have to lose your entire gaming rig which most likely means that it is stolen. So send in a copy of your police report. That way, miners will be punished for wrong legal proceedings if they make a business out of 'losing cards'.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by Mindwipe on Friday March 04, 2022 @04:33AM (#30552511)
> They could sell their cards in cooperation with Steam: Only people with an active steam account are eligible to a new card. If their performance stats don't improve after the purchase, which means they have resold their hardware, they won't be allowed to buy another card.

I have a baby. I do anything on Steam once a month at best. Crypto miners could pretty trivially make their use cases look like they spend more time gaming than a good 30% of Steam's active user base. This is a non-starter.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by loa_in_ on Friday March 04, 2022 @10:47AM (#30556339)
There are more mining rigs than people behind them, so limiting the number to number of people would be some improvement for sure
Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by dspillett on Friday March 04, 2022 @06:16AM (#30553211)
> Is there some practical way to delineate the two product usages that isn't arbitrary I wonder?

Highly unlikely. There might be reasonably reliable heuristics to identify gaming operations, but any signal for mining is likely to trigger for other long-process number-crunching too.

The idea puts me in mind of the other side: the police once raided a home because surveillance via helicopter identified, from the heat pattern, the property as like to have a loft-based cannabis farm. Turned out that the loft was full of equipment running coin miners. Simple checks get significant false positives.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by ehnto on Friday March 04, 2022 @10:27AM (#30556086)
Oh I meant specifically avoiding those kinds of arbitrary locks and checks, by delineate I meant make two separate product lines to cater for the two different markets. My hope would be that miners would buy the one better for mining, taking some pressure off the graphics cards for graphics market. Imagine a "3080 Mining" card that has no monitor outputs, no huge memory reserves, no extra-curricular processing units. It should be much cheaper.

But perhaps miners would just buy both mining and non-mining cards, since it's not a zero sum purchase, every card added to the stack is worthwhile.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by paulmd on Friday March 04, 2022 @12:22PM (#30557568)
Mining does have strong indicators though: mining memory access is nothing like memory access for a game or application.

Normal games and applications won't just max the whole memory bus at 100% for hours and hours. Even in a high-load situation it will still bounce around 90-100% or whatever. Mining absolutely slams the memory bus 100%, because current implementations are Proof Of Bandwidth so that's the stat you need to maximize.

Normal games or applications will go out of their way to align threads in a warp to access contiguous memory blocks ("coalesced memory access"), because that can be efficiently handled as a single request and broadcast to every thread. Mining can't do that because every thread is working in a totally different place in memory determined by the DAG. So normal applications will have lots of coalescing happening, mining will have zero.

Normal games or applications will have cache hits, because they're re-using at least some data frequently. Mining will have an (effectively) 0% cache hit rate because the DAG is sending threads to random places in memory and memory is much larger than cache.

These are simple things that can be metered with O(1) performance counters on the hardware. If the card sees a load like that, run in cripple mode, nuke the memory bus to 10% performance. Then you can also add the capability for a whitelist - the driver can attest that a certain binary has been signed by windows from the appropriate vendor, and TPM can attest that the driver and hardware hasn't been tampered with (Remote Attestation). So no need to worry about legacy code or DIY cuda code unless it happens to look like a mining application, and then you can whitelist any edge-cases.

TPM is going to be mandatory for OEM Windows 11 systems - home builders technically don't need it, but then if they happen to run some code that performs 100% random unaligned memory access you'd have to get it signed. But most code doesn't behave anything like that, so that is a real edge-case unless you are trying to write a miner.

You may be morally opposed to the above, but it's not impossible at a technical level, mining code actually looks nothing like normal code at a perfcounter level.

Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by mattwilsonn888 on Friday March 04, 2022 @10:50PM (#30564077)
Just wait. GPU mined currencies is pretty much exclusive to Ethereum which has dedicated plans to migrate away from PoW. Monero is set on PoW but uses a psuedo random mining challenge to thwart dedicated hardware and target all purpose CPUs - its targeting, not sure if its what you want.
Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by Hendrikto on Friday March 04, 2022 @05:19AM (#30552807)
Crypto mining is just one of many factors driving availability down and prices up. If it disappeared tomorrow, you still would not be able to buy a GPU at MSRP.
Re:Cybercriminals who breached Nvidia issue one of the most ... by eru on Friday March 04, 2022 @03:10AM (#30551987)
Eh, you can fix that problem much simpler: nvidia can raise MSRP.