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Re:David Boggs has died by KineticLensman on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @11:41AM (#30516369)
> “Seems Ethernet does not work in theory,” he said, “only in practice.”

Respect!

Re:David Boggs has died by mshockwave on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @12:38PM (#30517184)
slightly tangent: is it true that ethernet doesn't have a solid math theory behind? if so, how does it scale?
Re:David Boggs has died by adrianmonk on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @03:07PM (#30519297)
I'm old enough to have been a sysadmin before ethernet switches were available. We used (literal) hubs, where every packet goes to every machine.

And it really did not scale. If you got too many computers on one Ethernet network together, things would start to really bog down.

We would address this by splitting an ethernet network into two. When it got too slow, we'd take our network of (say) 1.2.3.0 - 1.2.3.255 and split it into two networks, 1.2.3.0 - 1.2.3.127 and 1.2.3.128 - 1.2.3.255. Each of these ethernet networks would get its own separate port in the IP router. (Which could require adding cards to the router. And put extra processing load on it.)

DHCP did not exist yet, so we had to manually go to each computer and change its broadcast address, subnet mask, and default route.

This was disruptive, so we tried to keep all addresses in the lower portion of the address range so that they would continue to function well enough during such a transition. For example, a host at 1.2.3.10 with subnet mask 255.255.255.0, router address 1.2.3.1, and broadcast address 1.2.3.255 would still function when we changed its ethernet to be 1.2.3.0 - 1.2.3.127 instead of 1.2.3.0 - 1.2.3.255. Its broadcast address and netmask were wrong, but it wasn't completely offline. (By contrast, a host with address 1.2.3.200 would be out of range for the new network parameters and would have problems immediately.)

Then Grand Junction came up with the idea of ethernet switches to isolate traffic, and we didn't get one because they were a bajillion dollars. I don't know the exact prices, but I would guesstimate something like $5000 to $10000 for a switch with around 10 ports.

But eventually they came down in price. With an ethernet switch, everything was amazingly easy in comparison. It basically did the same thing I'm talking about (splitting an ethernet into pieces so the devices don't try to talk over each other), except instead of it being a weeks-long manual process, it happened automatically in real time.

Once switches became standard, ethernet was pretty scalable. Broadcast traffic still isn't scalable if it's used too much, but otherwise it basically works fine.

Re:David Boggs has died by adrianmonk on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @11:22PM (#30523688)
Replying to myself: I guess Grand Junction didn't come up with it. Probably Kalpana did? Grand Junction was just the first ethernet switch I heard of.

(Also, ethernet bridges were a thing at the time, and they are basically 2-port switches. But arguably a switch with a bunch of ports was a different way of thinking about how to do an Ethernet network.)

Re:David Boggs has died by Melatonic on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @07:11PM (#30521852)
Literal hubs still generally beat the hell out of dealing with serial connections :-D
Re:David Boggs has died by gjf on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @01:53PM (#30518324)
Short answer is: it doesn't. When designing networks you will try to reduce the scope of layer 2 broadcast domains.
Re:David Boggs has died by NovemberWhiskey on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @07:03PM (#30521774)
Right - the old rule of thumb used to be an Ethernet collision domain should have a maximum of five segments, with four repeaters, and three populated mixing segments (i.e. buses like 10BASE5 or 10BASE2), the other two segments being link segments (i.e. point-to-point like 10BASE-T or 10BASE-FL).

I think the idea was that anything more than this was likely to lead to long enough round-trip times between devices at the far ends of the Ethernet that the CSMA/CD algorithm couldn't be guaranteed to work.

Re:David Boggs has died by markjenkinswpg on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @01:10PM (#30517640)
Switching.
Re:David Boggs has died by gowld on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @01:15PM (#30517728)
Why would math theory be required for scaling?
Re:David Boggs has died by fragmede on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @02:53PM (#30519128)
Implementation details at layer 1 and 2 of the OSI model. If machine aa needs to talk to machine zz (and there are all the machine in between them), then aa needs a timeslice to change the electrical levels that are on the actual ethernet cable, as does zz in order to reply, but if ab and ac and ad and all the way to zy are also busy communicating, then when does zz get that timeslice? Switching (vs hubs) improves the situation drastically, but as you scale up (like, thousands of thousands aka "webscale", there's clearly going to be some sort of limit at some point (until you apply other technology). What is that point using Ethernet though, and how do you calculate that?
Re:David Boggs has died by thehappypm on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @06:26PM (#30521466)
The OSI model never really panned out in reality
Re:David Boggs has died by birdyrooster on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @12:21AM (#30524054)
Except it did, and that is the point of Layer 3. Also the esoteric nature of OSI doesn't mean it isn't useful.
Re:David Boggs has died by thehappypm on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @10:25AM (#30528385)
What I mean is that the OSI layered model never got implemented exactly to spec.
Re:David Boggs has died by birdyrooster on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @05:28AM (#30612965)
Yes good point
Re:David Boggs has died by birdyrooster on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @12:20AM (#30524046)
It does not scale. That is why we have IP.
Re:David Boggs has died by justin66 on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @01:53PM (#30518337)
Of course it's not true.