You treat an attack very differently.
If Poland let the refugees in, I expect Belarus would pull more stunts like this. It was no good for anyone.
There is some mild tension with Ukrainians coming to Poland as low-cost labor, but at the end of the day, it's the same culture. Or at least it was before Poland started to Westernize its culture. Honestly, I think the right solution here is to reform the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Poland, Lithuania, and Ukraine really ought to be one country. If Latvia, Estonia, Slovakia, or Moldova want to join in, the more the merrier. Belarus and Russia, when they're ready.
Estonia, by the way, is the odd man out. It has the least cultural or ethnic connection; much less than you'd expect. But I think it'd be a happy marriage. It's a compatible kind of diversity, where each side brings something complementary rather than conflicting and both sides benefit.
All of this happened before Ukraine closed its borders to fighting-age men.
(But then, I like my adopted city state home. So I might be biased.)
Tear down the borders between countries instead as much as possible. Like eg the EU does (despite all its other faults).
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2021/09/poland-be...
Poland has bitter painful recent memory of aggression from Soviet Union just recently. Now there is a real risk obliteration of whole Ukraine, who just recently got independence after hundreds of years of invasion.
But also, most countries have had endlessly shifting borders, with endlessly shifting immigration, emigration, and cultures are a result.
All current states, are at best a few hundred years old, really.
England has had mostly unchanged borders since 927!
Those people were from the middle east, pakistan, afghanistan and so on no? A big difference when it's your neighbor in need.
There are many people from the Middle East living, studying and working in Poland, Hungary, Romania, Czechia, etc. without any issues. One for them is my dentist and another in engaged to one of my cousins and is studying medicine to become a doctor.
The big difference is they came here legally and with money, studies, jobs or skills to support themselves, so the locals only have an issues with the illegal economic chancers trying to game the asylum and welfare systems, and nothing against people from the Middle East.
Those welfare migrants usually end up in countries like Sweden or Germany anyway, where whatever is left of the middle class taxpayer, is "happy" to give away half their income to support them indefinitely, with the wishful thinking that they will eventually contribute to their economy, pension system, and reverse the declining birthrates. At least they were right about the latter.
What the Poles see when they look at Ukranians are the same thing that most of the anglosphere sees -- fair skinned Caucasians. That's why "everyone" cares and why this relatively uneventful situation is getting this amount of news coverage.
You must know very little of history, to think coverage is only due to race.
Show me another country with the same nuclear arsenal, or with the military might, invading countries this large, in a location which has started two world wars.
Playing the race card is... weak.
Exclusively due to race.
> Show me another country with the same nuclear arsenal, or with the military might, invading countries this large, in a location which has started two world wars
Might as well say "show me another country also named Ukraine." How about Syria? Where Poland, specifically, sent its forces to train separatist rebel groups and had an airforce positioned to support the rebel offensives? Help me understand the difference, considering when refugees from Syria get to Poland they're rounded up, beaten up and expelled.
> Playing the race card is... weak.
Calling it weak helps skirt around the cognitive dissonance at seeing two tragedies, exactly the same barring ethnicity, and fabricating scenarios that justify one and disregard the other. The same people who are fascinated with what's happening in Ukraine are the same ones who had "Je suis Charlie" over their Facebook profile photos in 2015. They see fair skinned Europeans in crisis and their opinions change dramatically. This is an extension of missing white woman syndrome[0] and part of the training the Western world receives as children to disregard the suffering of non-anglophone and non-Europeans.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome
If Poland invade the Ukraine, most people wouldn't be 1/10th as interested.
It is almost like you have no grasp of the history of NATO, the USSR, two world wars, nuclear weapons, and the power to deploy military might.
Can rebels in Syria destroy the entire planet with nukes? Can a conflict in Syria cause all NATO nations to be pulled into mutual defense agreements?
Quite literally, this single act of Russia's could have the potential result of turning entire planet into ash, or dragging 100 countries to war, or seeing a new empire carved out.
And I haven't even discussed China's role in all of this, current and future.
This invasion, this single act, could result in billions dying.
But sure, it's all just about race.
The rebels in Syria can't destroy the planet with nukes... and neither can the rebels in Ukraine. The conflict in Syria has a higher likelihood of pulling in NATO members considering NATO is already in Syria, with Russia, the US and Turkey all engaging in direct combat there.
> Quite literally, this single act of Russia's could have the potential result of turning entire planet into ash, or dragging 100 countries to war, or seeing a new empire carved out.
Except none of that is true. You know, because Ukraine is not a part of NATO and there are literally no NATO forces in Ukraine?
It's funny how you seem to ignore that NATO nations are already engaged in war with Russia's proxies in Syria -- in some cases seeing direct confrontation -- but somehow Ukraine is the one that matters. But it's not about race.
> This invasion, this single act, could result in billions dying.
The single act being invading a country filled with fair skinned Caucasians, you mean.
> But sure, it's all just about race.
Considering the pearl clutchers happily armed the rebels in Syria and supported its partition, and are now crying doom and gloom when Russia does the same in Ukraine, then it is about race.
Let me know when the Polaks on the far right start kicking up a stink about the European refugees about to enter the country and you'll hopefully start to see it's all about ethnicity.
That's fantastic. A person I know is in Ukraine (currently at the border with Poland, AFAIK) and he reports multiple-kilometer long queues of people on foot trying to cross the border. It sounds like they'll need all the help they can get.
I mean he basically flew refugees from the Middle East to Belarus for the purpose of putting them in Poland border and embarrassing Poland.
When a foreign power is trying to violate a neighbors borders, it’s fair to talk about protecting your borders.
Is anyone actually OK with Poland taking any refugee Lukashenko leaves at your border?
Russia will lose.
Separate a regime from a nation. I don't know any Russian (I’m Russian in Spain) who would have any negativity to the Poles. Maybe it would be better to stop the hatred from another side as well.
That is the thing you do not get - when you read about it in history books, it is not the same as experience something yourself. When it is your life that is being damaged, it hurts... and hurt people are not objective. People generalize. Read your own comment - you read one unpleasant comment from one guy on the internet and you are already generalizing it to Czechs you met in Prague. How would you react if someone did this[1] to someone you know?
I did not say that I hate you. I was just trying to explain to you why many people might. They do not want to hate (it is not pleasant). They did not choose to "cultivate hatred" as you say. They were hurt and hatred is natural reaction to trauma. Instead of blaming them, the victims, blame those who hurt them.
[1] - GRAPHIC! - https://www.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/t1z8i8/near_kh...
EugeneOZ, to put it absolutely clearly, I know you bear no personal responsibility, you do not deserve hatred, and if you understood it that way, there was misunderstanding caused by me and I sincerely apologize.
I’m sorry if some of my words were offensive - no personal attack was intended from my side.
P.S.: russians also have that proverb about the mirror :)
> That is the thing you do not get - when you read about it in history books, it is not the same as experience something yourself.
I'd say that's condescending. Also,
> you read one unpleasant comment from one guy on the internet and you are already
is unduly personal.
If we had free Belarus by today, this war wouldn't have happened.
Without constant pressure on the capital, Ukrainian military would have easy time doing a general offensive on southern direction, or maybe even reaching Rostov, and Volgograd.
It was very appaling to see Polish government initially agreeing to sneak in weapons bought by volunteers, and then detaining it on the border.
Do keep in mind that I'm not exaggerating, that's literally what they did.
I think the war is awful, and wish it weren't happening, but think the sooner it is over, the better for everyone involved.
I think that Russia has real concerns about eastward expansion of NATO, and NATO should stop expanding in the region.
One could conceivably be unable to develop a rational full perspective on events of any kind if they are never made aware of a subset of information.
This is true but very uninteresting (of course if you're denied crucial information you can't build a holistic view). What's more interesting is: is it actually the case that information is being systemically and totally suppressed, for which there seems to be little evidence.
It also seems like you're trying to use this trivial truth to stealthily support an anti-ukraine position.
You're using HN guideline wording ("uninteresting") seemingly in preparation to flag my comment if I step outside of your box. And your final sentence can have a chilling effect on intellectual conversation.
If this is a "trivial truth" then why do so many people fail to grasp the connections between the work of fiction and the modern realities? Your world view perhaps takes it as a given, but people should be afforded the opportunity to reach realization well after the point that you yourself achieved it.
I was pointing it out because not everyone is aware that this is possible, and it hopefully creates an interesting perspective for someone on an otherwise flamebait comment. It's past the point of usefulness now, however, as the other post has been rightfully flagged.
edit: To go a bit further, my original comment does feel a bit off-topic on reflection. That is, of course, why these sorts of posts should simply be flagged and just move on. I should've avoided trying to dredge up some interesting conversation.
Additionally, I feel like your post would've been more interesting and encouraging of conversation had you simply stuck with the question "what evidence is there that this is occurring NOW though?"
I personally have no evidence this is happening, but the conversation would at that point be open to a third party contributing evidence if there were any.
Now, the mother of my friend lived there in Donbas in 2014. Since Russians took over the territory, at some point Ukrainians became unable to maintain the infrastructure, they effectively lost this land. But my friend had a lot of spite against the Ukrainian government for not providing basic amenities there anymore. Also no longer sending money like pension to people there. Which is debatable: since Russians took over the responsibility, why should Ukrainians be involved? But I understand the tragedy of individual people, without water, electricity and money, with constant fear of being shelled by either side and no refuge anywhere.
So this is how at least some Russians living in Ukraine see the situation. Maybe today a bit less, but still.
It's all very corrupt and the economy is far from free.
Of course, they don't deserve being invaded nor conquered by Russia either.
It would have been put down quickly without putin's help but the sentiment there was very real. It's among the most pro-russian areas of the whole ukraine and yanukovych was popular. Only a minority of people there were likely to be happy about the lurch towards Europe signified by the Maidan.
It has close industrial, commercial and cultural ties to Russia.
In a reverse scenario I could well see Lviv revolting.
Then I went to Kiyv and and asked someone for directions in broken Russian. He said, "Why are you speaking Russian? We're in Ukraine, you can speak English for example". At this point I realized in the West of Ukraine there were already some tensions regarding the coexistence of these two groups.
I experienced a lot of good things both from Russians and Ukrainians and it breaks my heart to see how Putin is sending these poor guys from conscription and sends them as fodder meat. I hope there is at least one sane person around Putin and they do what others had been trying to do in such a situation[0] - but this time successfully.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassination_attempts...
Really, there are ethic Russians all over that part of Europe, the Baltics and even Poland. But that doesn't make them Russian nationals.
Now not so good tidbit. Just few months ago we had a lot of people lured into Belarus by Lukashenko trying to come to Europe. Poland treated them really really poorly. Catching them after crossing border and pushing them back. The society was split among pro-refugees and anti. The political parties almost all focused on "protecting our border".
I was afraid that this natalist sentiment might repeat, even though Ukrainians are one of the closest people to Poland. I am very happy to note I haven't heard anyone speaking against refugees from Ukraine, not on twitter not on facebook not by far-right parties, altough I am sure some people are silent about their opinions.