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Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by nickpp on Friday February 25, 2022 @08:38AM (#30467091)
Right now, for better or worse, Ukraine is fighting for the whole of Europe and maybe for the world's future. The fact that they are alone and we aren't doing anything to help them will hunt Western (and NATO) countries forever.
Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by ZeroGravitas on Friday February 25, 2022 @08:45AM (#30467154)
This seems well intentioned but overly dramatic to the point of being false.

Other nations have been training Ukrainian Troops and supplying Stinger missiles and so on. Lots of diplomacy and financial sanctions happening.

The step to actually involve an external Army in killing Russian soldiers has big ramifications that shouldn't be ignored.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by robert_foss on Friday February 25, 2022 @08:49AM (#30467198)
Germany sent 5000 hats to Ukraine. It also prevented the export of actual military equipment to Ukraine from the baltics. And it shot down sanctions related to the SWIFT banking system.

With friends like Germany, who needs enemies.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by 7373737373 on Friday February 25, 2022 @08:52AM (#30467234)
They didn't even send the helmets, now they are citing logistical issues to be the reason for their lack of support. They are feigning incompetence to hide their unwillingness to actually do something
Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by 7373737373 on Friday February 25, 2022 @10:55AM (#30468596)
Edit: Now it seems they are actually underway
Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by RealityVoid on Friday February 25, 2022 @08:51AM (#30467222)
They must be scared of losing gas access. And they need gas more than Puțin needs money. That's why he allowed himself this gamble at this time. And it seems to be working.
Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by robert_foss on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:11AM (#30467459)
This is surely the cause. Germany has foot-gunned itself horrifically when they gutted their nuclear power generation. The idea was to replace it medium-term with natural gas.

Natural gas is also quite common in germany for building heating + cooking.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by PickledHotdog on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:40AM (#30467740)
Bingo.
Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by tablespoon on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:19AM (#30467534)
> With friends like Germany, who needs enemies.

Threaten to cut them off from SWIFT and kick them out of NATO. Their military is a joke, and they're clearly freeloading.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by ZeroGravitas on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:00AM (#30467341)
Maybe you should focus your ire on the leaders of the countries doing the invading? Taking the opportunity to attack one of the invaded nations allies for not doing enough seems unhelpful to the point of being counterproductive.
Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by ghettoCoder on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:06AM (#30467400)
I have never wanted the ability to downvote a comment more than I do after reading yours.
Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by robert_foss on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:08AM (#30467421)
Critiquing does very little against someone who has committed to invade a country. Rarely has it stopped a bullet, much less a tank. Russia has already accepted the cost of being criticized.

But for the record, Putin has shown himself to have little regard for anything besides ending up in the history books next to Stalin & Hitler.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by ZeroGravitas on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:21AM (#30467558)
And yet there's nothing you could think of to say that didn't equate Germany and Putin as Ukraine's enemies?

This is all very reminiscent of "Hillary is just as bad as Trump". Seems to be a common logical fallacy that you can't have something that is better than the alternative but still not good enough.

Instead people have to exaggerate to make the better one just as bad, which then has the implicit claim that the worse one is just the same as the better one in this metric.

Whatever Germany is doing or not doing, it seems unlikely to approach the same level as invading Ukraine and killing a whole bunch of people.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by robert_foss on Friday February 25, 2022 @10:21AM (#30468178)
I have not equated Germany with Russia. Don't strawman me.

I am however pointing out that Germany is delaying and holding back the response to a European country being invaded.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by ZeroGravitas on Friday February 25, 2022 @10:52AM (#30468566)
> With friends like Germany, who needs enemies.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/with_friends_like_these_who_n...

"An expression indicating that one's close associates prove more adversarial than one's opponents."

Probably just an unconscious idiom, but the use of the word "enemy" in context of an invasion seemed to be a bit too loaded a term.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by insickness on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:38AM (#30467723)
Europe and the US's energy dependence on Russia emboldened Putin to attack because now sanctions will harm us as much as they harm him. No, we're not the ones attacking Ukraine, but we are complicit.
Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by robbedpeter on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:10AM (#30467444)
Direct military intervention increases the risks of massive nuclear or cyber war. Given the frailty of power grids and the season, the US can't justify the risk of death and chaos over supporting Ukraine.

Hopefully anonymous and independent hackers don't escalate to infrastructure attacks.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by nickpp on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:16AM (#30467502)
If Putin wins, I think we'll get an even higher chance of nuclear or cyber war. He has no reason to stop at Ukraine and has no moral issue with using whatever weapon he can get his hands on to win.
Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by tablespoon on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:14AM (#30467485)
> Other nations have been training Ukrainian Troops and supplying Stinger missiles and so on. Lots of diplomacy and financial sanctions happening.

A lot of that has been too little, too late (e.g. last minute transfers of some equipment). Some of it was an embarrassment (Germany sending hats).

IIRC, the US gives far more military assistance to Israel than it ever has to Ukraine. In retrospect, that really should have changed circa 2014. Most of Europe continues to live in a fantasy-land where war is unthinkable and Putin cares about the easy half-measures they're willing to take.

Putin's done a bully thing by making one of his demands that his victims be kept weak. The Western powers more or less obliged him.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by nickpp on Friday February 25, 2022 @08:49AM (#30467201)
Here are Garry Kasparov's suggestions. None of them imply boots on the ground:

https://twitter.com/kasparov63/status/1496865471995523080?s=...

Kasparov wrote the book "Winter is Coming" back in 2015.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by sebow on Friday February 25, 2022 @08:50AM (#30467215)
Ukrainians are definitely not alone.A lot of them are coming here(a EE,NATO/UE country) and other neighboring countries and they're received well: most people in EE naturally dislike russia for obvious reasons.

I understand somewhat US not doing much of anything militarily speaking, and it's nothing new: happened before, it's precisely why Putin does it: he dares the west to do something, because (and this is the bigger, more overlooked picture) he knows he's mainly there to play a role: to distract the west from Taiwan, Kazakhstan[people already forgot about this one, it's critical for China's development of the 'Silk road' train route], etc. If sh1t hits the fan, he also knows China backs Putin.That's why also the Chinese are threatening TW lately: the western leadership(Biden, Germany's Scholz,somewhat even Boris & Macron) is weaker right now.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by nickpp on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:11AM (#30467458)
What if China's future moves in Taiwan are being determined by the Ukrainian outcome? A Russian victory (I think) will show a weakened, divided West and will embolden China.
Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by sebow on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:52AM (#30467855)
I think china's plans for tw are not necessarily determined by Ukraine, mainly because getting TW hurts the west and empowers China way more.(chips,obviously) It's a reasonable assumption to make and personally I think China wants tw regardless. Hybrid wars that are being started and slowed down : I.e. joggling with your opponent's forces are very dangerous.
Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by alistairSH on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:00AM (#30467329)
Assuming "we" is either the US or the entirety of the western world, I'd disagree. Any decision to engage Russia with NATO or NATO-adjacent forces must be lead by the nations of Europe.

There are still other sanctions that can be applied. Removal from the Swift network is probably the nuclear option in terms of financial sanctions. But, Germany and Italy (at least), as of yesterday, were opposed because of the likely impact on their own economies.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by fireflymetavrse on Friday February 25, 2022 @08:46AM (#30467164)
It's not like NATO to deploy forces there to fight the Russians. This is a more complex military, strategic and political issue with many implications.
Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by xibalba on Friday February 25, 2022 @08:48AM (#30467189)
From the article:

> * Ukraine is not a NATO ally, and the alliance is not treaty-bound to protect it.*

I suspect risking a military engagement between NATO and Russia would be to risk a world war.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by tbihl on Friday February 25, 2022 @10:07AM (#30468023)
You would hope that invading Ukraine would also be understood as risking a world War. But clearly that would be a misunderstanding.
Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by s1artibartfast on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:01PM (#30471678)
A very obvious misunderstanding. For the last 15 years NATO and Russia have been extremely clear and consistent on the point.

Russia has consistently announced that it will invade Ukraine to stop NATO membership.

NATO has consistently announced that it will not defend Ukraine, but it is Ukraine's' decision if it wants to be a member.

You might not like the situation (I don't), but the cards have always been on the table.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by xibalba on Friday February 25, 2022 @01:01PM (#30470123)
I don't think that is sound logic.

As disgusting and insane as this invasion of Ukraine is, the current state of European treaties would not necessitate a world war as an outcome.

Putin, the evil war making scum that he is, has been explicit for DECADES that the armament and NATO flirtation with Ukraine is completely unacceptable to Russia, Russia sees Ukraine as a buffer zone against the West, and that Ukraine belongs in the Russian sphere of influence. History does not disagree with him. Ukraine was for centuries part of the Russian empire and then the Soviet Union. Ukraine has a large population of ethnically and/or culturally Russian peoples. All of these facts have been known and communicated for many years. In fact, these are some of the reasons Ukraine has never been on the path to NATO membership.

In other words, while we can and should condemn Russia's invasion of Ukraine, it does not, per se, set us on a deterministic path to a world war.

Quoting Obama circa 2016:

"The fact is that Ukraine, which is a non-NATO country, is going to be vulnerable to military domination by Russia no matter what we do."

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by it_does_follow on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:02AM (#30467361)
I'm surprised to see so many moral narratives, like this one, surrounding war start popping up. I thought it was pretty well understood and established that the narratives we tell about war are mostly propaganda/myth making after the fact.

War is about resources and control. That's it. There are no "good/bad" guys (or more specifically they're all "bad" guys). We're not participating in some grand moral struggle, we're taking calculated risks to maximizes gains when the opportunity appears and minimize losses when we have no other options.

For the last 70 years world power has be set so there was primarily one global hegemon (the US) so there was not much movement on the world stage among powerful nations. Economic strategies remained the safest way to control resources among world powers, but military actions still dominated in cases of extreme power asymmetry. The US has been invading and bombing countries and regions virtually continuously for the last few decades.

The resource situation is starting to change, so risks that made no sense suddenly start to seem more reasonable. But absolutely none of what we're seeing now has anything to do with some silly narrative about NATO powers and Russia. Russia has ceased the opportunity of low risk acquisition of resources, NATO powers have worked to minimize their own loses given the risk of any major action is high.

As resources grow more scare we'll see increased military conflict. The severity of which will be proportional to the scarcity. None of this will "haunt" anybody, it's just a game to survive which as been fairly easy the last few decades and that is changing.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by TManlius on Friday February 25, 2022 @11:58AM (#30469346)
People on internet, especially on twitter, reddit and here are too innocents and/or naives. War is what you described and that will never change.

It doesn't matter what system or ideology people invent, war will always appear in order to to get power or resources. Or just because there are bored, just like Dostoevsky said it.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by nickpp on Friday February 25, 2022 @12:55PM (#30470033)
> Or just because there are bored

You just contradicted your entire first 3 sentences :)

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by TManlius on Friday February 25, 2022 @01:59PM (#30470819)
How? If power and resources are not scarce, then people will start doing despicable things just because they can and want to. As I said, most of you here are naive and will not see it.
Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by tablespoon on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:22AM (#30467570)
> I thought it was pretty well understood and established that the narratives we tell about war are mostly propaganda/myth making after the fact.

I suppose that includes the one you just spent five paragraphs expounding upon?

> NATO powers have worked to minimize their own loses given the risk of any major action is high.

NATO is avoiding short term losses to risk long term ones.

Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by nickpp on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:22AM (#30467577)
Don't you think conflicts and wars also have an ideological/cultural component? Freedom vs dictatorship, communism vs capitalism, democracy vs authoritarianism?
Re:NATO leaves Black Sea exposed as Russia invades Ukraine by it_does_follow on Friday February 25, 2022 @01:50PM (#30470705)
No, these are always the tools used to convince people to go to war, and later to justify the results.

They are part of the ways power maintains power. Every first king is just a warlord, a thug more brutal than the rest, and after defeating their enemies they suddenly declare the role of king is ordained by the god(s) and to challenge it is heresy. They set up the notion that rulers are more noble than common men, which is why they should rule over them and control the land. In later years they will use these tools to again convince their people to fight for them in the name of "country" or some other such notion.

And what peoples are against "freedom"? Do you really believe terrorists attacked the US because they "hate our freedoms?" No, it's because the US systemically destroyed their homelands, denied them of their own freedoms, and forcibly took their resources. But when you fill your gas tank you aren't comfortable recognizing that a hidden part of the price of the gas is the civilians murdered so you could have it.

I'm endlessly surprised to see educated adults buying into the stories will tell children about how the world works.