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Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by weisk on Thursday February 24, 2022 @10:23PM (#30463386)
You seem like a knowledgeable person. What does Ukraine really have, that Putin so desperately wants? And best of luck to you, dear friends.
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by wolverine876 on Thursday February 24, 2022 @10:36PM (#30463452)
I'm not the person you asked, but the very well-known understanding, going back probably to Napoleon or earlier (among foreign policy experts), is that Ukraine has geopolitics. Geography is far more important to national power than non-experts realize.

Without Ukraine's Crimean peninsula, Russia loses sea access to the Black Sea and thus the Mediterranean for their navy (and also for trade), which historically has been a primary determinant of Russian military influence in Europe. Otherwise, they only have northern ports which are frozen and easily choked off (and ports way over on the Pacific - imagine having to sail your navy around Eurasia in order to attack or defend).

More importantly, Ukraine's geography is easy to move large forces across, in that respect a major battlefield (with due respect to Ukrainians). Napoleon and the Nazis both crossed through that region on their way to Russia, and when Russia attacks West, they go through Ukraine. Russian wants to control it and to prevent others from controlling it.

By controlling Ukraine, Russia can put more pressure on, have more influence over, Ukraine's neighbors, including Poland, and further cut off Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia from their NATO allies.

Finally, Putin wants glory - don't underestimate the personal characteristics, such as ego, of unaccountable dictators - and to recreate the Soviet empire and the illusion of power. An independent, democratic Ukraine both undermines that appearance (and perception is everything for dictators) and embarasses Putin's claim to power as an authoritarian dictator.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by sofixa on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:20AM (#30465264)
> Without Ukraine's Crimean peninsula, Russia loses sea access to the Black Sea and thus the Mediterranean for their navy (and also for trade),

That's untrue. Sevastopol is the main port and naval base in the Black Sea, but Russia has plenty of others, and some are even undergoing expansion - Novorosiisk ( the backup one). Sevastopol is in Crimea, but was shared under an agreement between the Russian and Ukrainian navies. So in reality, Russia gained nothing there besides an extra front for their current invasion of Ukraine.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by noselasd on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:18AM (#30466056)
They gained exactly what they wanted by taking crimea, the inability to deploy nato forces and equipment there and domestic contorl of their leased naval port in crimea. Basically nato stated that yep, ukraine (and georgia) should join them, later on when the ukraine coup happened and got a pro western government, russia was going: yep - possibility of nato on crimea and losing our haval base there is not going to happen, it's ours now.
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by sofixa on Friday February 25, 2022 @08:13AM (#30466867)
But that didn't achieve anything. NATO can still deploy forces and equipment in Odessa or Mykolaiv, or in Romania or Bulgaria or Turkey, and can still easily block access to the Mediterranean.
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by noselasd on Friday February 25, 2022 @08:52AM (#30467229)
It all depends on your point of view - the russian point of view is that nato controlled crimea is much more unwanted, and would and leave them much more cornered compared to nato controlled Odessa and Mykolaiv (and that point shouldn't be too hard to realize by looking at the map). And they wanted to keep their naval base there, which they now can.

Romania, Bulgaria doesn't border Russia , Turkey is not on the land border and they have decent relations with them. But sure, they're likely not happy with that either - they just can't and will not do anything about it. With Crimea/Ukraine - they could.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by wolverine876 on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:12PM (#30474711)
> That's untrue. Sevastopol is the main port and naval base in the Black Sea, but Russia has plenty of others, and some are even undergoing expansion - Novorosiisk ( the backup one).

I have never seen someone claim that Novorosiisk was a sufficient port. Maybe it's a capacity issue?

> Sevastopol is in Crimea, but was shared under an agreement between the Russian and Ukrainian navies.

It is in a foreign country, an unfriendly one. That greatly limits Russia's freedom of action.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by sofixa on Saturday February 26, 2022 @04:05AM (#30476233)
Novorosiisk is undergoing expansion for precisely that reason. And Ukraine wasn't exactly unfriendly before the invasions, the Sevastopol lease was prolonged just before that.
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by jollybean on Thursday February 24, 2022 @11:42PM (#30463793)
It's not geography, it's history and ethnicity.

Putin view Ukraine as a natural part of the Russian Empire - they are his vassals.

They can't have a free and prosperous Ukraine that has 'gone to the side of the west'.

The Crimean peninsula is just a bonus.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by lurquer on Thursday February 24, 2022 @11:08PM (#30463625)
> Napoleon and the Nazis both crossed through that region on their way to Russia

Hitler yes. Napoleon no. The French neither attacked nor retreated through what is now Ukraine.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by c-smile on Friday February 25, 2022 @01:28AM (#30464253)
That naive geography positioning reasoning is far from reality. From that point of view Belorussia is more valuable.

That "Mystery of Russian Soul" lies among the lines of "Kiev - mother of Russian cities" (term of 12th century Primary Chronicle) and too many other historical facts. Like Wild Steppe (south of Ukraine) were fought for and liberated from Crimean Khanate by Russian Army. Modern Kherson, Nikolayev, Sevastopol, and Ekaterinoslav(Dnipro/Dnepropetrovsk), were established by Gregory Potemkin (Empress Catherine times) and populated by peasants from Russian heartlands - Tambov, Ryazan, Pskov, etc.

All that is well known and well remembered facts by Russian public. So we should not expect that Russian people will be so against all that. If in doubt then see the above.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by wolverine876 on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:15PM (#30474724)
These nationalistic narratives are means, not causes. Russia wants to control Ukraine, so they teach these narratives to create public support. It's done in many places about many things. You can see people on HN repeating them about their countries.
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by wolverine876 on Friday February 25, 2022 @01:15AM (#30464187)
Note that I hedged with, "through that region" (because I didn't have time to lookup the route). So which way did they go?
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by oblio on Friday February 25, 2022 @01:48AM (#30464335)
Current Belarus, North of Ukraine.
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by 7thaccount on Thursday February 24, 2022 @11:06PM (#30463605)
There is a Wendover Productions video on YouTube that describes "Russia's Geography Problem" and then this whole thing mostly clicks. It is all geopolitics to them.
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by sremani on Friday February 25, 2022 @12:49AM (#30464079)
https://zeihan.com/russias-twilight-war/

Peter Zeihan predicted this in 2017. There is first of many wars to come.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by Gatsky on Friday February 25, 2022 @12:15AM (#30463942)
I wouldn’t use the word desperate. This campaign seems to have been planned out over a decade or more and carefully timed if you ask me. Observe how the new German leadership can’t bring itself to block SWIFT access in winter after recently turning off nuclear power capacity, because it will cause an energy crisis. That isn’t a coincidence. Neither I think is that all this happened while it is Russia’s turn chairing the UN security council.

The fact is that democratic countries with leaders elected yesterday are at a disadvantage to these perpetual dictators with low accountability and strong convictions.

Putin is a snake. I would say he’s the most dangerous man in the world. He absolutely cannot be trusted, and his agenda really does involve damaging and weakening other sovereign nations seemingly for the sake of it.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by usrusr on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:20AM (#30464861)
> and his agenda really does involve damaging and weakening other sovereign nations seemingly for the sake of it.

The only game he knows and when he sees a winning move he can get away with he can't not take it.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by HWR_14 on Thursday February 24, 2022 @11:45PM (#30463807)
So, there's a lot.

For one, Putin seems to want to reassemble the USSR as a vanity project. Further, this all started (years ago) when the Ukrainians removed out their Moscow friendly president. Putin doesn't like reminders that months of sustained protests can really effect change and remove leaders, especially so close to Russia.

Crimea is the only "warm water" port that Russia has access to to gain access for the end and the Atlantic.

The Ukraine has a ton of farmland. This may be more valuable soon because China imports a ton of food and if you're planning on a Sino-Russo alliance cut off from western powers, food is important.

Similarly, it shares a lot of the fresh water sources with the rest of Europe. I don't know if it's something he can attempt to monopolize, but controlling water into the region is at least as good as natural gas, and less seasonal with less ability to diversify like to green energy.

The USSR located some specialty heavy industry in Ukraine. If it still exists, it might be valuable. I read, but can not confirm, that it was part of the strategic goal of the USSR to make sure each constituent state wasn't self sufficient to encourage national unity. But that could just be BS. Reasoning like that is almost certainly why Crimea was given to the Ukraine.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by oblio on Friday February 25, 2022 @01:49AM (#30464342)
> Crimea is the only "warm water" port that Russia has access to to gain access for the end and the Atlantic.

This is bullshit propaganda, sorry. Russia has over 1000km of coast at the Black Sea, to the East of Crimea.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by HWR_14 on Friday February 25, 2022 @11:00AM (#30468658)
Turns out I was pretty wrong about that. I thought Novorosiisk was in Crimea. Sorry to spread misinformation.

I will say, even if it were true, that wouldn't justify what Russia is doing. But I can see how it would be useful for domestic consumption.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by oblio on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:13PM (#30470974)
It's not your fault. They've been peddling this, as well as conquering Constantinople for the same reason, since the time of Peter the Great.

Its straight out of Imperial Russia's propaganda book. Kind of proof that Russia since ~1600 has always been the same country, just with a different coat of paint (the one between 1917 and 1991 happening to be red paint).

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by sofixa on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:25AM (#30465297)
You're wrong about Crimea ( Novorosiisk), but mostly correct about the rest. Ukraine has a lot of specialised heavy industry - tank, engine, ship, aircraft building. Important parts of it are needed by the Russians, which is why there were many joint programmes before 2014 - Russian ships used Ukrainian produced turbines and engines, there was collaboration on new cargo aircraft, etc.
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by rosndo on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:00AM (#30465927)
> For one, Putin seems to want to reassemble the USSR as a vanity project

Putin has almost exclusively bad things to say about the USSR, it is the Russian Empire he wants to restore.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by HWR_14 on Friday February 25, 2022 @11:11AM (#30468794)
I didn't mean the government of the USSR. I meant the geographic reach.

But you contend that Putin doesn't want the western tip of Ukraine, but instead to reclaim Finland, Alaska and parts of Poland? Because that's the only difference in his territorial ambitions.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by simne on Sunday February 27, 2022 @07:04PM (#30494308)
Thank you!
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by simne on Sunday February 27, 2022 @02:24PM (#30491604)
For Russians, this is geopolitical question. What I mean, they feel themselves imperfect, if size of their country does not correspond with their weight in world.

Very similar to what WW1 and WW2 causes.

- In approx 1900, Germany becomes one country (before, there where many small principalities, and no central power lasts long).

So appear new country, powerful country, and they look on world and see colonial system, where nearly ALL powerful countries has colonies. I mean whole world where divided between top countries.

First, Germany tried to reach an agreement with top countries, to cut some colonies from other countries and assign to Germany, but without fast success, because pre WW1 agreements system where extremely sophisticated, and they just cannot rebuild this system fast.

Than German powers conclude, that they could faster got wanted if make war, that's all.

To be more precise, Russia is large, but economically, it's position is worst in world, except Mongolia. - Russia have longest in world size of land borders, near no borders on mountains, very little number of possible sea ports; extremely large territory is just ice, nothing could grow there.

- Russia really have reliable access to sea only in few places - Baltic, Black sea/Azov, and on Pacific, this is extremely little, for so large number of citizens (approx half of US).

BTW, current Russia situation is much better, than for example 200 years ago, because that time they had neighbors, who demand very high fees for access to sea. To solve this, Russians occupied their neighbors - 300-200 years ago, Russians near constantly invade neighbors and assimilate them into their empire, so now they have another problem, google Belfast.

Now, Russians trying to work less crude, they trying to place puppet governments in all neighbors countries.

Ukraine have borders with three EU countries, and is one of the largest counties on Black sea, so Ukraine is extremely interest for logistics.

And unfortunately, current Ukraine don't have effective government system, as I said on another comment, current Ukraine officials are extremely corrupted and extremely illiterate.

So Russians concluded, that Ukraine could be easy target for occupation and/or to place puppet government, and prepared for invasion and invade.

I don's think, Russians really plan to assimilate Ukraine, most probably, planned scheme where similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact

BTW exists excellent movie, very good show atmosphere in Warsaw Pact countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_of_Spies_(film)

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by jollybean on Thursday February 24, 2022 @11:40PM (#30463784)
"What does Ukraine really have, that Putin so desperately wants? "

It's not 'what it has' it's 'what it is'.

Putin views the Ukraine as 'part of Russia' - that's it.

I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this.

Imagine if Mexico invaded Texas in 1950 and 'won'. A lot of Americans would want to 'take it back'.

Now I don't believe that this analogy is real in terms of the Ukraine situation (Imagine if those Mexicans wanted to be Mexicans and definitely did not want to be part of the USA...), but you can see how Putin + Co. propaganda would like you to see it.

I'm wary that there will be much of an insurgency in Ukraine - it's big, open, spread out, there are few places to hide.

We'll see.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by magpi3 on Friday February 25, 2022 @12:27AM (#30463998)
Not a very good analogy. No western country ever invaded Ukraine. When the Soviet Union collapsed Ukraine was granted its independence without a shot being fired.

A better analogy would be Australia and Canada. Both were part of Great Britain and both became independent after the British Empire collapsed.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by sofixa on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:28AM (#30465316)
Eh, independent is a stretch. Both have the Queen as head of state, and her representative, the governer-general, has some powers.

Example of the Queen's representative interfering in local politics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional...

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by throwrqX on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:48AM (#30465842)
If Australians so wished they could have voted for a republic and to become fully independent several times yet they have chosen not to so far.
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by sofixa on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:16AM (#30466036)
Yes, but that doesn't in any way change the fact that they aren't really independent if an official appointed by a foreign power can dismiss and appoint cabinet ministers at will.
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by throwrqX on Friday February 25, 2022 @08:43AM (#30467132)
Well they are if they can vote to get rid of this official at any time they choose.
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by ant6n on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:42AM (#30465422)
> Imagine if Mexico invaded Texas in 1950 and 'won'. A lot of Americans would want to 'take it back'.

Ironically it happened the other way round.

Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by vinay427 on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:52AM (#30466288)
Yes, but this quote leaves out the distinction they made. The GP goes on to note the difference caused by who the people in the region support. In real life, as far as I can tell, most people in that region ended up supporting independence or later accession to the US, which seems slightly more similar to the more complex Ukraine situation in the GP comment than Mexico simply wanting Texas back.
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by ant6n on Friday February 25, 2022 @07:45AM (#30466682)
Most people in that region (Northern Mexico) were immigrants from the US.
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by jessaustin on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:33PM (#30473170)
Yeah we pulled that trick in Hawai'i too. Viewed a certain way, the whole nation was built through settler colonialism.
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by vinay427 on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:00PM (#30474648)
Yes, thanks for clarifying, that’s what I was referring to.
Re:Ukraine calls on hacker underground to defend against Russia by oblio on Friday February 25, 2022 @01:54AM (#30464373)
Urban resistance is a thing. It's super painful as you're destroying cities, but it's a thing.